On Wed, 1 Dec 2010 01:33:49 -0800 (PST)
George wrote:
It's the worst snowfall I've seen for a very long time.

Yet in north and west london theres virtually bugger all. Strange how these
snowstorms can be so localised yet so severe.

B2003

On Dec 1, 9:23*am, George wrote:
On 30 Nov, 18:58, Paul Corfield wrote:





On Tue, 30 Nov 2010 04:01:36 -0800 (PST), George

wrote:
A lot of bus routes have been disrupted by the snow and whilst
Metrobus have provided a lot of info through their excellent website
there is nothing at all on the TfL website which I think is an utter
disgrace. An e mail will be winging its way to them from me, I might
get a reply by next summer!

But why let the truth get in the way of a rant George?

I looked at the TfL website buses real time list earlier today and there
were plenty of entries relating to the poor weather conditions in South
East London and Croydon. *Example routes I picked were 61, 477, 466,
404, 434, 450, 96, S1, S3, S4, R5, R8 and 358. They all had entries
explained where there was general disruption or in some cases more
specific info for the route * e.g. in Orpington the bus station area by
the railway station is inaccessible so alternative stop info was listed..

You can see every disruption on the network if you select the "show all
disruptions" link rather than entering route numbers individually.

It may not be like the Facebook and Twitter feeds that some operators
run but that would be an enormous task in London. *To say nothing was
provided is just not correct and I would expect the reply from TfL to
completely contradict what you state is the case.
--
Paul C

Oh dear Paul, it looks like you are the one trying not to let facts
get in the way of starting another squabble, and that sort of nonsense
belongs on the LT Group, not to be confused with the new (argument
free) LT Group!

I am doing no such thing. The facts are completely clear.

Yes I had heard *you* had started an alternative group under another
of your assumed names. I don't see how you can claim it is argument
free given it has been running for "five minutes". You will get debate
and disagreement or argument at some point so it's best not to gloat
unless, of course, you are moderating all posts so that there is no
disagreement whatsoever.

Where exactly do I find all this then? I looked on live travel news
but it wasn't there, and many others were also complaining about the
lack of info, perhaps you could let us all into the secret of where
TfL have hidden it as most people don't have time to search the entire
site? *Of course go to the Metrobus site and you can't miss it, a
photo of buses in the snow sort of gives it away, perhaps TfL will
cotton on one day?

You go to Live Travel News, the default page is for LUL and DLR and
Overground but there is a Tab with "Buses" on it. Click that and you
can select by route number or else there is another link for "all
disruptions".

I have not seen people say they cannot find the info - several people
have posted about their personal experience of the service and some of
those have said that they found the relevant part of the TfL website.

Just because you cannot navigate your way through a simple part of the
TfL website in no way removes the fact that the information is
available on the site. Your accusation was that there was *no*
information - I have simply stated that you are incorrect.

It's a winter wasteland here in the Beckenham area this morning,
abandoned vehicles (including buses) everywhere

Everywhere? I doubt that somehow. There may be some vehicles left on
some roads but they won't be *everywhere*.

--
Paul C
via Google

On Tue, Nov 30, 2010 at 03:12:45PM -0800, wrote:

The Croydon area seems to have been very badly hit.

It was. In Thornton Heath there was about 4 or 5 inches of snow on the
ground, versus a thin scattering just a couple of miles further north,
when I got home last night.

I had to use a cab, because there were no trains running between Balham
and Thornton Heath (well, not according to announcements at the station -
the departure boards and the online live departure boards disagreed, but
given that all three were saying different things I decided to trust the
station staff to know better) and my driver told me that he'd just taken
*two hours* to get from Croydon to Balham. I could believe him too.
Southbound it wasn't too bad, but there was a ridiculous amount of
northbound traffic going nowhere fast. And this was at 10pm.

There were buses running, but with no trains they were rammed, and in
any case, the service was very infrequent, presumably because so many
buses were stuck in traffic.

The weather in the afternoon was much worse than it had been in the
morning, and I'm not surprised at the delays, but I think the
information could, and should, have been better, both for the buses
and the trains.

Yes. I don't really understand how station departure boards and the
online live departure boards can be different. Surely they're driven
off the same data sources, but they were both utterly divorced from each
other and from reality when my journey started at Shepherds Bush, when
I changed at Clapham Junction, when I got off at Balham, and three hours
later when I left the pub and went back to Balham station.

--
David Cantrell | Nth greatest programmer in the world

Suffer the little children to come unto me, as
their buying habits are most easily influenced.
-- Marketroid Jesus

In article , d ()
wrote:

On Wed, 1 Dec 2010 01:33:49 -0800 (PST)
George wrote:
It's the worst snowfall I've seen for a very long time.

Yet in north and west london theres virtually bugger all. Strange
how these
snowstorms can be so localised yet so severe.

It looks like a South East London problem only.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

On Dec 1, 12:12*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Dec 1, 9:23*am, George wrote:





On 30 Nov, 18:58, Paul Corfield wrote:

On Tue, 30 Nov 2010 04:01:36 -0800 (PST), George

wrote:
A lot of bus routes have been disrupted by the snow and whilst
Metrobus have provided a lot of info through their excellent website
there is nothing at all on the TfL website which I think is an utter
disgrace. An e mail will be winging its way to them from me, I might
get a reply by next summer!

But why let the truth get in the way of a rant George?

I looked at the TfL website buses real time list earlier today and there
were plenty of entries relating to the poor weather conditions in South
East London and Croydon. *Example routes I picked were 61, 477, 466,
404, 434, 450, 96, S1, S3, S4, R5, R8 and 358. They all had entries
explained where there was general disruption or in some cases more
specific info for the route * e.g. in Orpington the bus station area by
the railway station is inaccessible so alternative stop info was listed.

You can see every disruption on the network if you select the "show all
disruptions" link rather than entering route numbers individually.

It may not be like the Facebook and Twitter feeds that some operators
run but that would be an enormous task in London. *To say nothing was
provided is just not correct and I would expect the reply from TfL to
completely contradict what you state is the case.
--
Paul C

Oh dear Paul, it looks like you are the one trying not to let facts
get in the way of starting another squabble, and that sort of nonsense
belongs on the LT Group, not to be confused with the new (argument
free) LT Group!

I am doing no such thing. The facts are completely clear.

Yes I had heard *you* had started an alternative group under another
of your assumed names. I don't see how you can claim it is argument
free given it has been running for "five minutes". You will get debate
and disagreement or argument at some point so it's best not to gloat
unless, of course, you are moderating all posts so that there is no
disagreement whatsoever.

Where exactly do I find all this then? I looked on live travel news
but it wasn't there, and many others were also complaining about the
lack of info, perhaps you could let us all into the secret of where
TfL have hidden it as most people don't have time to search the entire
site? *Of course go to the Metrobus site and you can't miss it, a
photo of buses in the snow sort of gives it away, perhaps TfL will
cotton on one day?

You go to Live Travel News, the default page is for LUL and DLR and
Overground but there is a Tab with "Buses" on it. Click that and you
can select by route number or else there is another link for "all
disruptions".

I have not seen people say they cannot find the info - several people
have posted about their personal experience of the service and some of
those have said that they found the relevant part of the TfL website.

Just because you cannot navigate your way through a simple part of the
TfL website in no way removes the fact that the information is
available on the site. Your accusation was that there was *no*
information - I have simply stated that you are incorrect.

It's a winter wasteland here in the Beckenham area this morning,
abandoned vehicles (including buses) everywhere

Everywhere? *I doubt that somehow. *There may be some vehicles left on
some roads but they won't be *everywhere*.

--
Paul C
via Google- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Indeed, and if you open that use the Edit - Find menu option on
Internet Explorer to search for the string "adverse weather", you can
scroll directly to the disruptions that are caused by adverse weather,
as opposed to any other cause. Having said that, it might be an idea
if there was a link directly from the home page which showed all buses
disrupted due to bad weather, rather than having to hunt for it as
described above. Other bus companies, such as Lothian Buses in
Edinburgh, are doing this.

On Dec 1, 12:12*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Dec 1, 9:23*am, George wrote:



On 30 Nov, 18:58, Paul Corfield wrote:

On Tue, 30 Nov 2010 04:01:36 -0800 (PST), George

wrote:
A lot of bus routes have been disrupted by the snow and whilst
Metrobus have provided a lot of info through their excellent website
there is nothing at all on the TfL website which I think is an utter
disgrace. An e mail will be winging its way to them from me, I might
get a reply by next summer!

But why let the truth get in the way of a rant George?

I looked at the TfL website buses real time list earlier today and there
were plenty of entries relating to the poor weather conditions in South
East London and Croydon. *Example routes I picked were 61, 477, 466,
404, 434, 450, 96, S1, S3, S4, R5, R8 and 358. They all had entries
explained where there was general disruption or in some cases more
specific info for the route * e.g. in Orpington the bus station area by
the railway station is inaccessible so alternative stop info was listed.

You can see every disruption on the network if you select the "show all
disruptions" link rather than entering route numbers individually.

It may not be like the Facebook and Twitter feeds that some operators
run but that would be an enormous task in London. *To say nothing was
provided is just not correct and I would expect the reply from TfL to
completely contradict what you state is the case.
--
Paul C

Oh dear Paul, it looks like you are the one trying not to let facts
get in the way of starting another squabble, and that sort of nonsense
belongs on the LT Group, not to be confused with the new (argument
free) LT Group!

I am doing no such thing. The facts are completely clear.

Yes I had heard *you* had started an alternative group under another
of your assumed names. I don't see how you can claim it is argument
free given it has been running for "five minutes". You will get debate
and disagreement or argument at some point so it's best not to gloat
unless, of course, you are moderating all posts so that there is no
disagreement whatsoever.

Where exactly do I find all this then? I looked on live travel news
but it wasn't there, and many others were also complaining about the
lack of info, perhaps you could let us all into the secret of where
TfL have hidden it as most people don't have time to search the entire
site? *Of course go to the Metrobus site and you can't miss it, a
photo of buses in the snow sort of gives it away, perhaps TfL will
cotton on one day?

You go to Live Travel News, the default page is for LUL and DLR and
Overground but there is a Tab with "Buses" on it. Click that and you
can select by route number or else there is another link for "all
disruptions".

I have not seen people say they cannot find the info - several people
have posted about their personal experience of the service and some of
those have said that they found the relevant part of the TfL website.

Just because you cannot navigate your way through a simple part of the
TfL website in no way removes the fact that the information is
available on the site. Your accusation was that there was *no*
information - I have simply stated that you are incorrect.

It's a winter wasteland here in the Beckenham area this morning,
abandoned vehicles (including buses) everywhere

Everywhere? *I doubt that somehow. *There may be some vehicles left on
some roads but they won't be *everywhere*.

--
Paul C
via Google

The place where I looked was TFL website, then 'Winter weather
conditions', then buses tab, then entered route number in the box.
For route 60 it now says 'No service Coulsdon Red Lion to Old
Coulsdon, not serving Poplar Walk in Central Croydon', which seems to
be correct, but twice yesterday it was saying that route 60 either had
no disruptions, or it was not a valid route. Clearly, this was not
correct.

I didn't look at route 466 yesterday, but it's now saying 'No service
between Coulsdon Town Centre and Caterham-on-the-Hill due to adverse
weather conditions.' This could perhaps be slightly better worded,
since it doesn't normally serve Coulsdon Town Centre, but turns left
before it gets there; it's actually being diverted to the town centre,
serving a few extra stops on the way. At least the information that
it isn't serving Caterham-on-the-Hill is correct, so the information
for these two routes is now correct. I don't know about the situation
on other routes, so I can't check the information now being provided.

On Dec 1, 12:08*am, "Graham J" wrote:
The Croydon area seems to have been very badly hit.
...
The weather in the afternoon was much worse than it had been in the
morning

Although we seem to have had five or six inches of snow build up over the
day, rather that the possible 1-2cm that was being forecast on Monday
evening, I wouldn't say the Croydon area has been particularly badly hit
weather wise. *It has just snowed. *It is not like a couple of years ago
when we woke up to nearly a foot of the stuff. *The pavements which had a
lovely layer of fresh snow this morning have got a little more treacherous
in the afternoon as the snow has been trodden down but the roads don't seem
so much worse than they were first thing.

When I wrote 'badly hit' I was referring more to the disruption than
to the weather conditions themselves, at least until about 15:00 when
I arrived at East Croydon station. After that it got quite nasty,
with a lot of snowing around in the air, falling temperature and very
poor visibility; certainly not good conditions to be driving on the
roads.

The trouble with Croydon is that it takes very little to gum up the works..
The main roads are very busy at peak periods at the best of times, and a
single closure or diversion on a major road can have a knock on effect a
couple miles away (e.g. the closure of Coombe Road for a few days a while
back was clearly reflected in the level and speed of traffic on the Lower
Addiscombe Road). So even the most modest amount of snow has a major effect.
Once the roads are bunged up the bus network, which is pretty good normally,
is of course stuffed. *Similarly there is an impressive rail service in
Croydon when all is going smoothly, but it is at capacity and it takes very
little to reduce it to chaos.

Between about 14:00 and 15:00 the traffic on the main road was hardly
moving at all. I didn't see it after that, so I don't know how long
this situation lasted. The weather at that time was certainly less
severe in central Croydon than we have seen in the last two years.
Somebody said that it was the same all the way down the Brighton Road
to Coulsdon and Hooley; certainly nothing was moving much when I
arrived at Coulsdon. Of course, the Brighton Road would be carrying a
lot less traffic if the motorway scheme hadn't been cancelled in the
'70s when they decided that demolishing a large area of South London
wasn't a good idea. Given how narrow the Brighton Road is a few
failed or abandoned vehicles would be quite effective at totally
screwing things up, but why the disruption should have been so bad
this yesterday, when the weather was less severe than we have seen in
the last two years isn't yet clear.

On Dec 1, 6:11*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:

On Wed, 1 Dec 2010 09:10:09 -0800 (PST),
wrote:
[big snip]
The place where I looked was TFL website, then 'Winter weather
conditions', *then buses tab, then entered route number in the box.
For route 60 it now says 'No service Coulsdon Red Lion to Old
Coulsdon, not serving Poplar Walk in Central Croydon', which seems to
be correct, but twice yesterday it was saying that route 60 either had
no disruptions, or it was not a valid route. *Clearly, *this was not
correct.
I didn't look at *route 466 yesterday, but it's now saying 'No service
between Coulsdon Town Centre and Caterham-on-the-Hill due to adverse
weather conditions.' *This could perhaps be slightly better worded,
since it doesn't normally serve Coulsdon Town Centre, but turns left
before it gets there; it's actually being diverted to the town centre,
serving a few extra stops on the way. *At least the information that
it isn't serving Caterham-on-the-Hill is correct, so the information
for these two routes is now correct. *I don't know about the situation
on other routes, so I can't check the information now being provided.

The point that started this thread was that there was *no* information
about TfL bus services. That is palpably incorrect - I found loads of it
in less than 5 minutes. *I know George of old from other Yahoo based
groups. He made the point and said he was going to complain to TfL. All
I am saying is that it would be a waste of time given that his
proposition is untrue and he has subsequently admitted he could not find
the right part of the website.

He will probably come along and change the basis of his argument - an
old tactic - to say that the website design is crap or somesuch. That is
a different argument as is your contention above about the accuracy of
the information that was provided. *I don't have a problem with agreeing
that some of the information could have been better phrased or perhaps
more timely or accurate. *However I don't know how busy Centrecomm and
the Travel Information Service has been nor do I know what genuine
problems the bus operators have faced. *If they'd all been sitting on
their backsides doing nothing other than drinking tea then criticism
might be due but I await some evidence rather than baseless wild
accusations before I get overly excited.

TfL is a long time target for George and he will take whatever
opportunity he can to lambast the organisation for being useless without
properly considering the issues that may genuinely account for a less
than ideal service. *He would, however, extend complete sympathy to
Metrobus because they're a private bus company and operate some
deregulated services outside of London. *Private and deregulated = good
and TfL and public service = bad in a certain person's book.

--
Paul C


I rather suspect many utl readers haven't taken long to get a handle
on George and his, er, perspective on things (wrong end of binoculars
springs to mind) - though the little bit of background is interesting
nonetheless.

Of course utl needed a 'snow thread' of some sort, and so it seems
that this is the vehicle for discussion on said topic. I get the
feeling that utl is a somewhat less busy place these days than in
times past, so I suppose we have to take what comes w.r.t. jumping off
points for about transportational happenings.

On Dec 1, 1:12*pm, wrote:

In article , ()
wrote:

On Wed, 1 Dec 2010 01:33:49 -0800 (PST)
George wrote:
It's the worst snowfall I've seen for a very long time.

Yet in north and west london theres virtually bugger all. Strange
how these snowstorms can be so localised yet so severe.

It looks like a South East London problem only.

That's to rather narrow it down though - south and (south)east of
London as well as just SE London were affected - the criticism of
gritting was being particularly levelled at the Boroughs of Bromley,
Croydon and Sutton, the latter being to the SW (or indeed SSW) of
course - the SE London suburban rail network meanwhile is of course
fundamentally intertwined with the commuter lines coming in from Kent
and Sussex, which have suffered big problems (Kent in particular). The
major roads leading out from and circling the SE fringe - M25, M20,
M26, A2, A20 - were particularly hit last night (as was the A23 a bit
further round), and may well be tonight too.

On Nov 30, 12:48*pm, Paul Terry wrote:

George writes

A lot of bus routes have been disrupted by the snow and whilst
Metrobus have provided a lot of info through their excellent website
there is nothing at all on the TfL website which I think is an utter
disgrace.

Have a lot of TfL routes been disrupted by snow?

There's only been very light snow in much of London today, and such as
there was melted very quickly.

I appreciated things are probably different on the outer fringes

It was heavier (though not what I'd regard as properly heavy) in
rather more than just the 'outer fringes', unless you were to regard
say Crystal Palace as being on the edge - and it certainly didn't melt
everywhere. All depends where one is talking about.