On Mon, 17 Jan 2011 18:47:00 +0000, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Mon, 17 Jan 2011 14:23:39 +0000 (UTC), d wrote:
Also a more complex network.

I have to say "so what?".

Isn't a complex network bad for reliability and capacity? I thought
the desire to rebuild Camden Town and split the Northern line into two
separate services was driven from the view that simple was good.

On Mon, 17 Jan 2011 18:47:00 +0000
Paul Corfield wrote:
I expect the new stations will attract decent levels of patronage as has
been the case for all DLR stops - even Langdon Park which was supposed
to have no business case at all and yet seems busy enough when I've been
through it.

I'm sure there will be some extra passengers , but will it be worth the
money spent? Hmm...

Also a more complex network.

I have to say "so what?". The ability to get a direct train from

More things to go wrong and screw the whole thing up.

While I would agree that it has an element of "growing like topsy" about
it I doubt you'd ever had got a heavy rail network built to the same
extent as DLR has achieved. The development of Canary Wharf has
undoubtedly skewed things with JLE and now Crossrail to also serve the
area. However I doubt a heavy rail DLR link would have prevented
subsequent demands for other links.

Lets not forget that the JLE was built precisely because the DLR wasn't up
to the job of shipping large amounts of people from central london to
docklands. Apart from an extra carraige since then I can't see much has
changed.

Which is used by precisely nobody.

At present there aren't huge volumes but I see people trogging their way

At present there are no volumes - there are no services booked to stop
there!

from East London / Essex. The interchange potential at Stratford is huge

But interchange to what? A load of railway lines coming together doesn't
mean it'll become some major international hub. If people seriously believe
a stadium and a few new blocks of flats means stratford will somehow compete
with LStP for international traffic they're dreaming.

B2003

On Mon, 17 Jan 2011 19:34:09 -0000
"Recliner" wrote:
I think many would agree that the DLR network is quite big enough
already.
No matter how many upgrades they do to it , at its heart its still a
glorified tram and is no substitute for a proper train line.

Why so? The DLR trains are undoubtedly superior to the 313s in every

More complexity leads to less reliability. As someone else has pointed out -
the northern line is a good example of this.

respect, and apart from not being airconditioned, I prefer them to 378s
(ie, more comfortable, more seats, much better views). The performance
is at least as good, and the capacity of a 3-carriage DLR is more than a
4-car 378, and much more than a 313. And that's before you get to the

Sorry , thats nonsense. At crush capacity you'll get far more in a 4 car 378.

Yes the DLR trains can cope with more severe gradiants but they're not an issue
here anyway.

Personally I think it would have benefitted a LOT more people if the money
had been spent on upgrading the NLL to a proper metro style service with
trains once every 5 or 10 minutes which would have provided a realistic
alternative to tube travel around north london.

B2003

wrote in message

On Mon, 17 Jan 2011 18:47:00 +0000
Paul Corfield wrote:
I expect the new stations will attract decent levels of patronage as

While I would agree that it has an element of "growing like topsy"
about it I doubt you'd ever had got a heavy rail network built to
the same extent as DLR has achieved. The development of Canary
Wharf has undoubtedly skewed things with JLE and now Crossrail to
also serve the area. However I doubt a heavy rail DLR link would
have prevented subsequent demands for other links.

Lets not forget that the JLE was built precisely because the DLR
wasn't up to the job of shipping large amounts of people from central
london to docklands. Apart from an extra carraige since then I can't
see much has changed.

Actually, DLR train lengths have tripled since it opened. Luckily you
weren't the one measuring the demand.



Which is used by precisely nobody.

At present there aren't huge volumes but I see people trogging their
way

At present there are no volumes - there are no services booked to stop
there!


Yet another factual mistake -- there are four high speed trains per hour
off-peak to StP, and about six per hour peak.


from East London / Essex. The interchange potential at Stratford is
huge

But interchange to what? A load of railway lines coming together
doesn't mean it'll become some major international hub. If people
seriously believe a stadium and a few new blocks of flats means
stratford will somehow compete with LStP for international traffic
they're dreaming.

You've obviously not noticed the new Westfield Stratford City retail
development, the largest urban shopping centre in Europe. Have you
actually visited the Stratford area in recent years?

On Tue, 18 Jan 2011 10:14:52 -0000
"Recliner" wrote:
Lets not forget that the JLE was built precisely because the DLR
wasn't up to the job of shipping large amounts of people from central
london to docklands. Apart from an extra carraige since then I can't
see much has changed.

Actually, DLR train lengths have tripled since it opened. Luckily you
weren't the one measuring the demand.

Thats ********. 2 car trains were running on the DLR a long time before the
JLE opened.

At present there are no volumes - there are no services booked to stop
there!


Yet another factual mistake -- there are four high speed trains per hour
off-peak to StP, and about six per hour peak.

I was talking Eurostar trains. After all , it is called stratford
*international*.

You've obviously not noticed the new Westfield Stratford City retail
development, the largest urban shopping centre in Europe. Have you
actually visited the Stratford area in recent years?

Are you for real? You honestly think tourists are going to come from the
continent to visit some cheesy bling palace full of chavs and illegal
immigrants so they can do ... what? Stock up on stuff from Accessorise or
Boots? Or maybe taste the culinary delights of Greggs?

And largest "urban" shopping centre means nothing. Its still smaller than
Bluewater or lakeside. It just means its bigger than Westfield in shepherds
bush or Brent Cross.

And no I haven't been down there recently except to pass through on the central
line. There are less ****ty areas of london I can visit instead if I have
the urge. And before you say I should go take a look now , the pictures on
google streetview are pretty recent and it looks like the same vile hole
I remember from when I last had the misfortune to have to go there many
years ago.

B2003

wrote in message

On Tue, 18 Jan 2011 10:14:52 -0000
"Recliner" wrote:
Lets not forget that the JLE was built precisely because the DLR
wasn't up to the job of shipping large amounts of people from
central london to docklands. Apart from an extra carraige since
then I can't see much has changed.

Actually, DLR train lengths have tripled since it opened. Luckily you
weren't the one measuring the demand.

Thats ********. 2 car trains were running on the DLR a long time
before the JLE opened.

True, but the DLR trains were single carriage when first introduced. The
JLE extension was authorised long before two-car DLR trains were
introduced, and it doesn't provide a link from the City to Canary Wharf.
And, of course, Crossrail will also serve Canary Wharf in a few years
(as well as occupying part of the old NLL trackbed).


At present there are no volumes - there are no services booked to
stop there!


Yet another factual mistake -- there are four high speed trains per
hour off-peak to StP, and about six per hour peak.

I was talking Eurostar trains. After all , it is called stratford
*international*.

Where did you mention Eurostar? You simply said that no-one used the
station because no trains were booked to stop there. Even if/when a few
international trains do stop there in years to come, domestic services
are likely to generate much more traffic.


You've obviously not noticed the new Westfield Stratford City retail
development, the largest urban shopping centre in Europe. Have you
actually visited the Stratford area in recent years?

Are you for real? You honestly think tourists are going to come from
the continent to visit some cheesy bling palace full of chavs and
illegal immigrants so they can do ... what? Stock up on stuff from
Accessorise or Boots? Or maybe taste the culinary delights of Greggs?

Who said anything about foreign tourists coming there? But the change
is that Stratford will soon become a destination in its own right, which
is a big change.


And largest "urban" shopping centre means nothing. Its still smaller
than Bluewater or lakeside. It just means its bigger than Westfield
in shepherds bush or Brent Cross.

Presumably you think that no-one therefore visits those two little
shopping centres, and that there's therefore no demand for public
transport to them?


And no I haven't been down there recently except to pass through on
the central line. There are less ****ty areas of london I can visit
instead if I have
the urge. And before you say I should go take a look now , the
pictures on google streetview are pretty recent and it looks like the
same vile hole
I remember from when I last had the misfortune to have to go there
many years ago.

Ah, that's why you're so well qualified to judge the future demand for
public transport in the area.

On Tue, 18 Jan 2011 11:16:20 -0000
"Recliner" wrote:
Thats ********. 2 car trains were running on the DLR a long time
before the JLE opened.

True, but the DLR trains were single carriage when first introduced. The

The whole DLR was a cut price solution by the thatcher government for an
area that should have had a full tube line from the get go. Its not really
a substitute for a proper metro service. There are too many stops, its too
slow and the trains are too small even with 3 cars.

And, of course, Crossrail will also serve Canary Wharf in a few years
(as well as occupying part of the old NLL trackbed).

At which point I would guess ridership on the DLR to and from Bank will
drop off a cliff. Unless crossrail gets its own sky high Heathrow Express
style fares which I wouldn't put past them.

Who said anything about foreign tourists coming there? But the change
is that Stratford will soon become a destination in its own right, which
is a big change.

It'll become a place to go shopping for middle distances locals. Nothing more.
That doesn't require a massive railway infrastructure. In fact going by whats
happened at the current Westfield centre in west london , most people will
go by car anyway.

Presumably you think that no-one therefore visits those two little
shopping centres, and that there's therefore no demand for public
transport to them?

See above.

Ah, that's why you're so well qualified to judge the future demand for
public transport in the area.

It seems to me more a case of wish fulfillment rather than actual projected
demand. Someone is hoping Stratford can be regenerated and become some sort
of upmarket shopping and leisure destination. I won't hold my breath. A turd
wearing a bow tie is still a turd.

B2003

wrote in message
...
On Mon, 17 Jan 2011 19:34:09 -0000

Personally I think it would have benefitted a LOT more people if the money
had been spent on upgrading the NLL to a proper metro style service with
trains once every 5 or 10 minutes which would have provided a realistic
alternative to tube travel around north london.

The 8 tph peak and 6 tph offpeak from May 2011 seem to broadly meet your
definition of a NLL metro style service. Beyond those frequencies the
limiting factor is the freight services, and removing freight would mean
something far more costly than a line upgrade.

Paul S

d wrote:

[Stratford International]
Which is used by precisely nobody.

At present there aren't huge volumes but I see people trogging their way

At present there are no volumes - there are no services booked to stop
there!

That's not the case. I don't know about Eurostar services but the domestic
high speed rail link to Kent stops there - I've used it myself to get to and
from Canterbury. I believe as more people discover the connection and adjust
their instinctive journey plans then usage will grow. Of course a decent
connection to Stratford that isn't a bus journey through a building site
will also help.

On Jan 18, 1:33*pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:
wrote in message

...

On Mon, 17 Jan 2011 19:34:09 -0000
Personally I think it would have benefitted a LOT more people if the money
had been spent on upgrading the NLL to a proper metro style service with
trains once every 5 or 10 minutes which would have provided a realistic
alternative to tube travel around north london.

The 8 tph peak and 6 tph offpeak from May 2011 seem to broadly meet your
definition of a NLL metro style service. *Beyond those frequencies the
limiting factor is the freight services, and removing freight would mean
something far more costly than a line upgrade.

Paul S

Tfl have issued a leaflet about the escalator upgrade works at
Victoria Tube Station from 31st January. (What a lot of fun that will
be!!)

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...lator-work.pdf

On page 3 of this leaflet it mentions that from late February 2011,
the Overground route will be extended from Dalston Junction to
Highbury and Islington, so perhaps there is a plan to open the new
section of the DLR at the same time.

I am glad I don't have to travel via Victoria on a regular basis.