Paul wrote on 28 January 2011 11:01:07 ...
On Jan 28, 10:30 am, wrote:
"Paul" wrote in message
...

Just to put my twopennyworth in, I don't like the policy where the
front of the bus only shows the final destination. I realise that this
may hae something to do with the provision of better information for
people with poor eyesight, but it seems a shame that improvements for
ne set of passenger has to be at the expense of another set of
passengers. London gets a lot of tourists who are not familiar with
the bus network and who need to know where the buses go. (eg if you
are on Regent Street and want to go to the Tower of London, and you
see a no. 15 with the destination "Blackwall", you would not
necessarily realise that this bus takes you where you want to go.)

Hear hear. I was in Piccadilly on Wednesday and saw endles 38s going by,
often with different destinations but absolutely no clue as to how they
could get there. Given they appear to be dot matrix type displays, they
could easily scroll as is done by any other bus and train companies. I
suppose the argument might be that the bus stop has all the info you need?

MaxB

The same argument applies to provision of space for buggies on buses.

No it doesn't. You're introducing an entirely separate issue. Start
your own thread, and omit uk.transport.london if it's not about London.
--
Richard J.
(to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address)

In message , at 21:18:28 on Thu, 27 Jan
2011, Roland Perry remarked:

So you might see buses swapped between the "Green" routes to Edwalton
(no6) and Ruddington (no10), but not running on a Purple, Brown etc
route.

And there I was this morning, waiting for my no10 when an unbranded
silver bus turns up!!

The driver was under training (past the "L-plate" stage, but still not
very confident, and with an instructor stood beside him), so perhaps the
silver ones are a warning to other drivers, or maybe an old one they
don't mind being bumped into the kerb every so often?
--
Roland Perry

In article , David
Cantrell writes
On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 10:21:56AM +0000, Roland Perry wrote:

Buses don't have the route number painted on them permanently!

Some do. Back in the good old days the Routemasters often did, and even
now many buses have a list of stops painted* on the outside**.

* for vinyl transfer values of paint
** although now that I think about it I can't think of any routes in
London that do this. It's very common in the provinces though.

The 402 Bromley to Tunbridge Wells uses dedicated buses with the
route number and destination painted on the outside. I don't know
what the 400-series are, probably ex-green-line or ex-"country bus",
but definitely TfL.
--
Bill Borland

On Thu, 27 Jan 2011 23:58:45 -0800 (PST), Paul wrote:

[...]
Just to put my twopennyworth in, I don't like the policy where the
front of the bus only shows the final destination. I realise that this
may hae something to do with the provision of better information for
people with poor eyesight, but it seems a shame that improvements for
one set of passenger has to be at the expense of another set of
passengers. London gets a lot of tourists who are not familiar with
the bus network and who need to know where the buses go. (eg if you
are on Regent Street and want to go to the Tower of London, and you
see a no. 15 with the destination "Blackwall", you would not
necessarily realise that this bus takes you where you want to go.)

On the other hand, if you are a tourist unfamiliar with London, going
to the Tower of London, and a bus turns up with the destination
Blackwall and a traditional London via screen showing "Tower Hill"
amongst a list of other unfamiliar places, how do you know whether
that bus is going towards Tower Hill or whether it has already passed
Tower Hill earlier in its journey?

The only realistic answer for on-bus information screens is for using
electronic blinds with via information that updates during the journey
as the bus passes the via point(s), but that would then involve either
only showing one, presumably relatively local, via point (not very
useful to tourists) or scrolling via points - and ISTR reading
somewhere that scrolling displays aren't very easy for the people with
poor eyesight to read, so you end up with the best of a bad job option
which is to have route number and final destination on the bus, and
decent information at the stop which allows you to find out that the
number 15 to Blackwall from this stop will take you to Tower Hill.

Of course, we then hit the problem that provision of information at
bus stops is nowhere near as wonderful in this country as it should
be...
--
Ross

Speaking for me, myself and I. Nobody else
- unless I make it clear that I am...

"Ross" wrote:

On Thu, 27 Jan 2011 23:58:45 -0800 (PST), Paul wrote:

[...]
Just to put my twopennyworth in, I don't like the policy where the
front of the bus only shows the final destination. I realise that this
may hae something to do with the provision of better information for
people with poor eyesight, but it seems a shame that improvements for
one set of passenger has to be at the expense of another set of
passengers. London gets a lot of tourists who are not familiar with
the bus network and who need to know where the buses go. (eg if you
are on Regent Street and want to go to the Tower of London, and you
see a no. 15 with the destination "Blackwall", you would not
necessarily realise that this bus takes you where you want to go.)

On the other hand, if you are a tourist unfamiliar with London, going
to the Tower of London, and a bus turns up with the destination
Blackwall and a traditional London via screen showing "Tower Hill"
amongst a list of other unfamiliar places, how do you know whether
that bus is going towards Tower Hill or whether it has already passed
Tower Hill earlier in its journey?

The only realistic answer for on-bus information screens is for using
electronic blinds with via information that updates during the journey
as the bus passes the via point(s), but that would then involve either
only showing one, presumably relatively local, via point (not very
useful to tourists) or scrolling via points - and ISTR reading
somewhere that scrolling displays aren't very easy for the people with
poor eyesight to read, so you end up with the best of a bad job option
which is to have route number and final destination on the bus, and
decent information at the stop which allows you to find out that the
number 15 to Blackwall from this stop will take you to Tower Hill.

Of course, we then hit the problem that provision of information at
bus stops is nowhere near as wonderful in this country as it should
be...

Though the provision of information at bus stops in London is very high -
all have timetables, the bus stop flags indicate the broad direction of
buses, numerous busier bus stops also have individual 'line diagram' style
timetables produced specifically for them which show the onward route of
buses from that stop, and numerous bus stop stands also display a 'bus
spider map' which diagrammatically shows routes that run from that locale
along with a small street map insert which shows which bus stops are located
where, along with a key and often a table to work out which route goes where
and from what stop. (Though Paul C will be along in a moment to say that he
disapproves of the simplified timetables!)

(And furthermore, once Countdown - that's the electronic bus stop displays -
is eventually made to work reliably, it'll be even better. And if realtime
iBus info ever makes its transition onto mobile phones... though we're still
waiting for that one!)

Meanwhile bus stops around the rest of the country are often fairly hopeless
in comparison, and a great many are completely useless.

On 27 Jan, 16:02, "Mizter T" wrote:
"Roland Perry" wrote:
In message
, at
02:45:34 on Thu, 27 Jan 2011, George
remarked:

I thought that buses running out of service were ordered to avoid their
service route where possible, because people waiting for buses get
annoyed if they see a bus with their chosen route number running out of
service.

A simpler solution is to replace the number with either "Not in Service"
or blank. Buses don't have the route number painted on them permanently!

Of course LED displays would solve this, just a touch of a button and
all routes nembers displays are removed.

I can't remember the last time I saw a bus that didn't have a changeable
display. Round here some of the single-deckers still have the manual
scrolls, but all the double deckers and the newer single deckers have
electronic displays.

The "manual scrolls" aka destination blinds used on London buses at least
are not manual but rather automatic aka motorised, so they can be and indeed
are changed at the touch of a button.

I don't think there's really a problem in London w.r.t. out of service
buses - I shall try and be a bit more observant of such things, but I think
the appropriate "Not in Service" blind is often used when buses are running
out of service, meanwhile when it's dark this isn't necessary because both
the lightbox behind the destination blind and the interior lighting will be
switched off and the bus quite evidently won't be in service.

I've never come across this notion that buses running out of service aren't
supposed to run on their service route before - I can think of numerous
examples of out of service buses running twixt their garage and start/end of
their route using a different route, but that's simply because the route
taken makes sense.

Perhaps worth noting that Paul C, who knows of George from other recesses of
the internet, said a few things on here when George first starting popping
up recently - my understanding of the crux of it was that Geroge's stance is
essentially that TfL's bus operation is a disaster, that they can't do
anything right, and that bus operators elsewhere outside of London are a
paragon of virtue in comparison, or at least something along those lines.
Thus far George's posts appear to subscribe to that general negative
worldview. I travel on London buses, I take a rather different view, but I
don't think I really need to elucidate any further.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


Well seeing as you've chosen to bring the matter up 'Mizter T', my
view is that TfL are very good at wasting money and that a far more
cost effective operations are provided by many other operators around
the country.

On 27 Jan, 15:36, "Mizter T" wrote:
wrote:
In article ,
(Roland Perry) wrote:

I can't remember the last time I saw a bus that didn't have a
changeable display. Round here some of the single-deckers still
have the manual scrolls, but all the double deckers and the newer
single deckers have electronic displays.

You are forgetting that in this respect TfL is still in the world of Ned
Ludd.

I don't like electronic displays - I know they've improved over the years,
but I still find that at a bit of a distance the bright LED light output
just results in an undecipherable mush, and the light can be a bit piercing
too. My vote is very much in the 'don't mess with our destination blinds'
column.


Ever noticed how many blind boxes have bulbs that don't work and so
you cannot possibly see what is on the blind in the dark until the bus
is virtually on top of you? Also many of the blinds are torn or dirty
and even in broad daylight they are difficult to read. Does rather
shoot a very big hole in your argument. By contrast the LED displays
on the trams in Croydon are crystal clear. You seem to take the
attitude that whatever TfL do or say might be right because TfL say it
is and you obviously feel that almost every other bus operator in the
UK who has moved with the times and switched to LED haven't got a clue!

"Bill Borland" wrote:

In article ,
David Cantrell writes
On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 10:21:56AM +0000, Roland Perry wrote:

Buses don't have the route number painted on them permanently!

Some do. Back in the good old days the Routemasters often did, and even
now many buses have a list of stops painted* on the outside**.

* for vinyl transfer values of paint
** although now that I think about it I can't think of any routes in
London that do this. It's very common in the provinces though.

The 402 Bromley to Tunbridge Wells uses dedicated buses with the
route number and destination painted on the outside. I don't know
what the 400-series are, probably ex-green-line or ex-"country bus",
but definitely TfL.


No, the 402 is *not* a TfL contracted route (apart from anything else, most
of the length of it is very much outside Greater London) - it's operated by
Arriva Southern Counties, and UIVMM TfL tickets are not accepted for travel
even on the stretch within Greater London (unlike say the 84 from High
Barnet to St Albans operated by Metroline, on which TfL tickets are valid
from High Barnet as far as Potters Bar).

TfL used to publish some information (originally a leaflet called 'Beyond
the fringes', before I think just becoming a PDF on their website) which
detailed where TfL tickets were accepted on non-TfL routes and how far out
that validity stretched - alas it seems to have disappeared last year and
not (yet) made a come back.

In article ,
(David Cantrell) wrote:

On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 10:21:56AM +0000, Roland Perry wrote:

Buses don't have the route number painted on them permanently!

Some do. Back in the good old days the Routemasters often did, and even
now many buses have a list of stops painted* on the outside**.

* for vinyl transfer values of paint
** although now that I think about it I can't think of any routes in
London that do this. It's very common in the provinces though.

Some central London routes had calling points painted on. Didn't the 23
for example?

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In article
,
(George) wrote:

On 27 Jan, 15:36, "Mizter T" wrote:
wrote:
In article ,
(Roland Perry) wrote:

I can't remember the last time I saw a bus that didn't have a
changeable display. Round here some of the single-deckers still
have the manual scrolls, but all the double deckers and the newer
single deckers have electronic displays.

You are forgetting that in this respect TfL is still in the world of
Ned Ludd.

I don't like electronic displays - I know they've improved over the
years, but I still find that at a bit of a distance the bright LED
light output just results in an undecipherable mush, and the light can
be a bit piercing too. My vote is very much in the 'don't mess with
our destination blinds' column.

Ever noticed how many blind boxes have bulbs that don't work and so
you cannot possibly see what is on the blind in the dark until the bus
is virtually on top of you? Also many of the blinds are torn or dirty
and even in broad daylight they are difficult to read. Does rather
shoot a very big hole in your argument. By contrast the LED displays
on the trams in Croydon are crystal clear. You seem to take the
attitude that whatever TfL do or say might be right because TfL say it
is and you obviously feel that almost every other bus operator in the
UK who has moved with the times and switched to LED haven't got a clue!

TfL and its predecessors have often been behind the curve on these things.
Remember how late they fitted the trams with windscreens?

--
Colin Rosenstiel