Can someone please explain why all the Oyster fares to the four c2c stations
which are outside the Travelcard zones but inside the Oyster PAYG area
include validity within zones 7, 8 and 9? These three zones have absolutely
nothing to do with c2c, and the number of people who need validity e.g. to
Grays *and* to Zone 9 must be vanishingly small. The area containing these
four stations is contiguous with Zone 6, so why not (for example) "Zone 1-6
+ Grays"?

"John Salmon" wrote in message
...

Can someone please explain why all the Oyster fares to the four c2c
stations which are outside the Travelcard zones but inside the Oyster PAYG
area include validity within zones 7, 8 and 9? These three zones have
absolutely nothing to do with c2c, and the number of people who need
validity e.g. to Grays *and* to Zone 9 must be vanishingly small. The
area containing these four stations is contiguous with Zone 6, so why not
(for example) "Zone 1-6 + Grays"?

Having said that, I see there is a Zone 6 + Grays fare, but it's the same as
the Zones 5-9 + Grays fare!

On Feb 10, 1:01*am, "John Salmon" wrote:
Can someone please explain why all the Oyster fares to the four c2c stations
which are outside the Travelcard zones but inside the Oyster PAYG area
include validity within zones 7, 8 and 9? These three zones have absolutely
nothing to do with c2c, and the number of people who need validity e.g. to
Grays *and* to Zone 9 must be vanishingly small. *The area containing these
four stations is contiguous with Zone 6, so why not (for example) "Zone 1-6
+ Grays"?


I think conceptually you might not be looking at this in quite the
right way, though I certainly see where you're coming from. An Oyster
single fare is for the journey made, i.e. it doesn't include validity
beyond that journey - I don't know the inside workings of Oyster PAYG
revenue apportionment, which I'd think are hellishly complicated (and
far more dynamic than the divvying up of the Travelcard loot), but at
a complete guess I'd suggest that c2c would probably get a greater cut
of the money from a Grays to Fenchurch St plus zone 1 Tube journey
than if that same passenger then continued on to travel out to
Amersham on the Met line - most pax from Grays being rather more
likely to do the former than the latter.

Given that, in terms of determining the fares structure I'd suggest
it's simply easier for there to simply be a 'zone 1-9 + Grays' fare
than for there to be both 'z1-6 + Grays' and 'z1-9 + Grays' fares - in
effect once you're coming into London from Grays then any travel out
to zones 7-9 comes for 'free' - however, how the money is actually
divided up between c2c and LU/LO depends on what you do and where you
travel (which in most cases isn't going to involve heading out to
Bucks or Herts!).

On Feb 10, 1:04*am, "John Salmon" wrote:

"John Salmon" *wrote:

Can someone please explain why all the Oyster fares to the four c2c
stations which are outside the Travelcard zones but inside the Oyster PAYG
area include validity within zones 7, 8 and 9? These three zones have
absolutely nothing to do with c2c, and the number of people who need
validity e.g. to Grays *and* to Zone 9 must be vanishingly small. *The
area containing these four stations is contiguous with Zone 6, so why not
(for example) "Zone 1-6 + Grays"?

Having said that, I see there is a Zone 6 + Grays fare, but it's the same as
the Zones 5-9 + Grays fare!

Just to clarify, it's a 'zones 6-9 + Grays' fare - and the fact it's
being the same price as a 'zones 5-9 + Grays' fare doesn't surprise me
greatly as many fares are 'stepped' in such a manner.

(Incidentally you'll note the lack of separate 'z2-9 + Grays/Watford
Jn' caps, which instead default to the 'z1-9 + Grays/Watford' caps -
all non-z1 caps and Day Travelcards, including the z2-6 and z2-9
flavours, were abolished in the new year's fares change.)

"Mizter T" wrote

Just to clarify, it's a 'zones 6-9 + Grays' fare - and the fact it's
being the same price as a 'zones 5-9 + Grays' fare doesn't surprise me
greatly as many fares are 'stepped' in such a manner.

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/14414.aspx shows a Zone 6 + Grays fare. That
seems to be the only fare involving Grays that does *not* include Zones 7-9.
Perhaps it's a mistake?

"John Salmon" wrote:

"Mizter T" wrote

Just to clarify, it's a 'zones 6-9 + Grays' fare - and the fact it's
being the same price as a 'zones 5-9 + Grays' fare doesn't surprise
me greatly as many fares are 'stepped' in such a manner.

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/14414.aspx shows a Zone 6 + Grays fare.
That seems to be the only fare involving Grays that does *not* include
Zones 7-9. Perhaps it's a mistake?

I apologise John, you're absolutely correct. That page is the 'National
Rail' fares page, and I suspect I was just looking at the 'Tube, DLR and LO'
fares page which shows a "Zones 6-9 + Grays" fare, but doesn't show a "Zone
6 + Grays" fare.

I'd strong suspect it's a mistake, yes. TBH, and I'm quite possibly being a
bit dim here, but the inclusion of zones 7-9 in the NR-only fares table
seems a bit of a nonsense anyway. I was going to suggest that it's only done
for the sake of consistency with the Tube/DLR fare table, but then why show
NR fares for say z2-9 when it's impossible to make such journeys at the NR
rate (bearing in mind that journeys on LO's Watford-Euston DC line are
charged at the TfL/Tube rate, including those made on parallel LM services).

Indeed I see there are NR fares shown for the following AFAICS 'impossible'
journeys - z1-7/8/9; z2-7/8/9; z3-7/8/9 - but there's nothing for z4/5/6 to
z7/8/9. Additionally there are fares shown for z1/2/3-9 + Watford Jn, but
nothing for z4/5/6-9 + Watford Jn. Meanwhile going out to Grays, there's
z1/2/3/4/5-9 + Grays and then, as you say, "Zone 6 + Grays" which seems
inconsistent and should I think be z6-9 + Grays.

But the inconsistency seems like nothing compared to the question of why
these NR-rate fares even appear at all, when I can't see what journeys they
can possibly refer to. At a complete guess, maybe they exist to provide
future extra-territorial expansion of the zonal system beyond zone 6, should
any TOC sign up for that - though it'd seem more likely that they'd want to
opt for the arrangement used for fares to/from Watford Jn and also to/from
the four c2c stations yonder zone 6. (Though perhaps it might all start
getting too unwieldy and TfL could say that 'you can join in Oyster PAYG,
but you've got to use zones 7-9' - but I'm just wildly speculating here.)

All that said, I could of course be missing something blindingly obvious
which would explain it all.