On 27 Feb, 11:51, "tim...." wrote:
"Roland Perry" wrote in message

...



In message , at 04:18:20 on
Sun, 27 Feb 2011, Roy Badami remarked:
So I think your second interpretation is correct and the Routeing Guide
does not have any power to ban you from using through trains or the
shortest route.

This FoI request seems to suggest otherwise:

http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/reques...l_rail_routein

The pertinent extracts:

Recently First Scotrail proposed changes to some local and middle
distance journeys involving the "Fife Circle" route that have been
approved by Transport Scotland. ATOC and Passenger Focus have approved
these too. Formal approval by the Secretary of State will shortly be
given and the changes incorporated into the NRG. Essentially these are
negative easements. [...] A negative easement however as in the
Scotrail application prevents for example, a journey from Edinburgh to
Rosyth (27 minutes and 14.75 miles apart) being made via Kirkcaldy
which takes over 70 minutes and is a trip of 52 miles which the
routeing guide would normally allow solely because it is a through
train providing the journey.

They are confused. (It won't be the first or last time). Because the
Routing Guide doesn't allow Direct Trains, the NCoC does.

In short - the NCoC defines "permitted routes", of which those appearing
in the routing guide are only one of three different classes (the other
two being Direct trains and Shortest route).

The NCoC goes on to say:

* *(d) The use of some tickets may be restricted to trains which take:
* * * * * * * (i) *routes passing through, or avoiding, particular
* * * * * * * * * *locations; or
* * * * * * * (ii) the most direct route.

* * * *These restrictions will be shown on the ticket.

So, it's entirely possible for TPTB to create tickets for the Fife Circle
which can only be used in one direction, but they would have to be marked
*on the ticket* as (eg) "Not Kirkcaldy".

There's nothing inherently wrong with inventing this restriction, but they
are simply using the wrong instrument to implement it.

What I don't understand is why there is actually a need to ban this.

As long as the existence of this journey doesn't create any BoJ
opportunities, what the hell difference does it make to the operator if
someone wants to sit on a train to Rosyth via Kirkcaldy? *How many track
bashing peeps who would take advantage of this, are there?

Presumably it does create BoJ opportunities.

The solution, surely, is to increase the price of the Any Permitted
Route ticket to Rosyth to reflect the distance via Kirkcaldy and
introduce a new Rosyth route Direct ticket at the current price. That
has been done in lots of other places. Or, even simpler than that,
split the train into two in the timetable. That's been done elsewhere
too.

South West Trains (or their predecessors) used to run through trains
from Waterloo to Littlehampton via Eastleigh. On my training course
this was used as an example of a case where the through train rule
applied even though the route was not otherwise valid. The through
route principle was intended to make it nice and easy for customers -
if the train went there the ticket was valid. Now this is being
undermined.

This is a dangerous precedent and the fact that it is happening in
Scotland is worrying as the precedent could apply everywhere despite
no-one in England or Wales having a say in it. (I take it that "formal
approval by the Secretary of State" is an error as this would be dealt
with by the Scottish Transport Minister.)

As other posters have said, however, it is probably invalid as it is
the NCoC that permits the use of through trains, not the Routing
Guide.

But leaving all this aside (and not being too familiar with the rail
geography of Central Scotland), why the hell is a train running to
Rosyth via Kirkaldy anyway?

On Feb 27, 11:31*pm, W14_Fishbourne
wrote:
What I don't understand is why there is actually a need to ban this.

As long as the existence of this journey doesn't create any BoJ
opportunities, what the hell difference does it make to the operator if
someone wants to sit on a train to Rosyth via Kirkcaldy? *How many track
bashing peeps who would take advantage of this, are there?

Presumably it does create BoJ opportunities.

The main problem is season tickets. Since season tickets allow start
and break of journey at all points on all valid routes (including
through trains), if you needed to get from Edinburgh to Kirkcaldy, you
could buy a season ticket to Rosyth, which would be a pretty massive
dodge.

The solution, surely, is to increase the price of the Any Permitted
Route ticket to Rosyth to reflect the distance via Kirkcaldy and
introduce a new Rosyth route Direct ticket at the current price. That
has been done in lots of other places. Or, even simpler than that,
split the train into two in the timetable. That's been done elsewhere
too.

Yes, correct.

This is a dangerous precedent and the fact that it is happening in
Scotland is worrying as the precedent could apply everywhere despite
no-one in England or Wales having a say in it. (I take it that "formal
approval by the Secretary of State" is an error as this would be dealt
with by the Scottish Transport Minister.)

IIRC the Scotland Act 2005 does require formal approval by the UK SoS
for rail matters, but it's formal approval in a similar fashion to
Royal Assent rather than "real" approval.

As other posters have said, however, it is probably invalid as it is
the NCoC that permits the use of through trains, not the Routing
Guide.

But leaving all this aside (and not being too familiar with the rail
geography of Central Scotland), why the hell is a train running to
Rosyth via Kirkaldy anyway?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fife_Circle_Line

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

In message
,
W14_Fishbourne wrote:
South West Trains (or their predecessors) used to run through trains
from Waterloo to Littlehampton via Eastleigh. On my training course
this was used as an example of a case where the through train rule
applied even though the route was not otherwise valid. The through
route principle was intended to make it nice and easy for customers -
if the train went there the ticket was valid.

I don't think it's just a case of making it easy for passengers. I think
that whoever first wrote the rule was thinking of trying to defend
otherwise:

QC: "Where did the train start?"
Gordon the Gripper: "Waterloo."
QC: "Where did the train go to?"
GG: "Littlehampton."
QC: "Where did my client get on the train?"
GG: "Waterloo."
QC: "Where did my client want to go to?"
GG: "Littlehampton."
QC: "And what was the ticket that my client held?"
GG: "An Open Single from London Terminals to Littlehampton."
QC: "For the correct date?"
GG: "Yes."
QC: "And, I believe, Waterloo is one of the stations that the railways
mean by 'London Terminals'?"
GG: (sweating) "Yes."
QC: "So my client was travelling from London to Littlehampton using a
ticket saying London to Littlehampton on a train from London to
Littlehampton, and you're trying to tell me that this isn't valid?"
GG: "..."

--
Clive D.W. Feather | Home:
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