A couple of times recently I've attempted to buy a ticket from
Boundary Zone 2 to Cambridge (either CDR or SVR) from Finsbury Park
station ticket office, and was issued instead with a ticket Finsbury
Park to Cambridge, Route Not London.

The second time I saw what the (same) clerk was doing before he issued
the ticket and tried to argue the toss but got nowhere - he insisted
on issuing the ticket from FPK "because it's the last station in Zone
2". The problem is that these tickets are *almost*but*not*quite*
equivalent (provided your using a 7 day or longer Travelcard). The
prices are the same, the restriction codes are the same and in
particular, AIUI the train doesn't have to stop at FPK, by virtue of
the rule about using one ticket that is a season ticket and one ticket
that is not (7 day Travelcards and longer are considered season
tickets for the purpose of this rule).

But, and there's a big but -- the ticket I requested is interavailable
between First Capital Connect and National Express East Anglia - the
one sold to me is not (because the West Anglia Main Line is a
permitted route between London Terminals and Cambridge, but it's not a
permitted route between Finsbury Park and Cambridge).

So it seems to me that FCC are deliberately refusing to sell me the
ticket I ask for because because there's another ticket that is in
identical in price and availability (this can't be an accident) but
ORCATS will allocate them a larger share of the ticket price
(presumably almost all - I think there may be the very odd journey
where change-at-Stevenage onto East Coast may be plausible).

The problem is that although you typically will want to use FCC on
that route, using NXEA is not entirely implausibe. It's particuarly
likely on a Sunday when fast trains are only hourly. If you just miss
the xx28 semi-fast train from CBG to KGX (which calls at FPK) then
there's a huge advantage in catching the NXEA service to LST four
minutes later, alighting at TOM and completing the journey by tube by
Oyster PAYG.

It's annoying enough that they insist you queue at the ticket office
to buy a Boundary Zone ticket, but when they refuse to sell you one
even there - what do you do? Well you rant on uk.transport.london and
uk.railway of course :-)

-roy

On Thu, 24 Feb 2011, Roy Badami wrote:

A couple of times recently I've attempted to buy a ticket from
Boundary Zone 2 to Cambridge (either CDR or SVR) from Finsbury Park
station ticket office, and was issued instead with a ticket Finsbury
Park to Cambridge, Route Not London.

The second time I saw what the (same) clerk was doing before he issued
the ticket and tried to argue the toss but got nowhere - he insisted
on issuing the ticket from FPK "because it's the last station in Zone
2". The problem is that these tickets are *almost*but*not*quite*
equivalent (provided your using a 7 day or longer Travelcard). The
prices are the same, the restriction codes are the same and in
particular, AIUI the train doesn't have to stop at FPK, by virtue of
the rule about using one ticket that is a season ticket and one ticket
that is not (7 day Travelcards and longer are considered season
tickets for the purpose of this rule).

But, and there's a big but -- the ticket I requested is interavailable
between First Capital Connect and National Express East Anglia - the
one sold to me is not (because the West Anglia Main Line is a
permitted route between London Terminals and Cambridge, but it's not a
permitted route between Finsbury Park and Cambridge).

Not so! It is permitted, although it depends on the ticket. AFAIK, there
are three FP - Cambridge fares; one that lets you go via a terminal ('via
London')), one that only lets you go via the GN ('FCC only'?), and one
that lets you take the tube to Tottenham Hale and the train from there
('not via London'?). I quite often buy return versions of the latter when
i want to do some walking in the country; i can take the train out up the
GN, walk across to the WA, and take the train and tube home.

I actually often treat the walk as a break of journey, and use the outward
portion to go on to Cambridge for dinner, before coming home (i do most of
this walking with a friend from Cambridge). I doubt this is permitted, but
i haven't got in trouble yet.

I am in the habit of asking for "a return to Cambridge, coming back via
Tottenham Hale", and after looking shocked for a second, the ticket guys
at FP proceed to sell me the right ticket. I was gripped while in
possession of one on a northbound WA train a few weekends ago, and the
ticket inspector was, by turns, satisified with the ticket, curious as to
why i was on his train, and then impressed with my ticket-buying acumen.

tom

--
London has a suburb for every emotion. -- Cliff Laine

On Feb 24, 11:02*pm, (Roy Badami) wrote:
A couple of times recently I've attempted to buy a ticket from
Boundary Zone 2 to Cambridge (either CDR or SVR) from Finsbury Park
station ticket office, and was issued instead with a ticket Finsbury
Park to Cambridge, Route Not London.

The second time I saw what the (same) clerk was doing before he issued
the ticket and tried to argue the toss but got nowhere - he insisted
on issuing the ticket from FPK "because it's the last station in Zone
2". *The problem is that these tickets are *almost*but*not*quite*
equivalent (provided your using a 7 day or longer Travelcard). *The
prices are the same, the restriction codes are the same and in
particular, AIUI the train doesn't have to stop at FPK, by virtue of
the rule about using one ticket that is a season ticket and one ticket
that is not (7 day Travelcards and longer are considered season
tickets for the purpose of this rule).

But, and there's a big but -- the ticket I requested is interavailable
between First Capital Connect and National Express East Anglia - the
one sold to me is not (because the West Anglia Main Line is a
permitted route between London Terminals and Cambridge, but it's not a
permitted route between Finsbury Park and Cambridge).

So it seems to me that FCC are deliberately refusing to sell me the
ticket I ask for because because there's another ticket that is in
identical in price and availability (this can't be an accident) but
ORCATS will allocate them a larger share of the ticket price
(presumably almost all - I think there may be the very odd journey
where change-at-Stevenage onto East Coast may be plausible).

The problem is that although you typically will want to use FCC on
that route, using NXEA is not entirely implausibe. *It's particuarly
likely on a Sunday when fast trains are only hourly. *If you just miss
the xx28 semi-fast train from CBG to KGX (which calls at FPK) then
there's a huge advantage in catching the NXEA service to LST four
minutes later, alighting at TOM and completing the journey by tube by
Oyster PAYG.

It's annoying enough that they insist you queue at the ticket office
to buy a Boundary Zone ticket, but when they refuse to sell you one
even there - what do you do? *Well you rant on uk.transport.london and
uk.railway of course :-)


My recollection is that a number of people have reported on here how
FCC (at least on the GN side of things) seem to issue extensions for
Travelcards as a conventional ticket from a specific origin station as
opposed to a Boundary Zone extention ticket (from the edge of a zone),
and indeed do so even in combination with a Day Travelcard when such a
combo isn't technically valid, but it gets passed by any ticket
checking staff as a matter of course.

So just wildly speculating, but I wonder whether staff (on the GN
side) might could have got into this habit a number of years ago
perhaps in the WAGN-era, say as the result of directions passed down
from managers with the aim of maximising ORCATS revenue, and it's all
just stuck? Something like that anyway.

(All that said, requests for Travelcard extensions elsewhere don't
always result in one being issued with the proper BZ extension ticket
either - though in many cases it doesn't really matter, which I
suppose means it never becomes and issue and hence there are never any
efforts made to ensure it's done the correct way.)

In article . li,
Tom Anderson wrote:
Not so! It is permitted, although it depends on the ticket.

I remain to be convinced. The Routeing Guide gives the routeing
permission as WA, and that map doesn't allow the WAML. There is an
easement that allows doubling back at Kings Cross, so you can go from
FPK to KGX to pick up the fast train, but I don't see how you get to
use the Liverpool Street service on an FPK-CBG ticket.

AFAIK, there are three FP - Cambridge fares

Avantix Traveller only shows fares for two routes (exluding staff
tickets): Route Any Permitted and Route Not London.

; one that lets you go via a terminal ('via London'))

That would be Route Any Permitted. It doesn't arbitrarily allow you
to go via a London Terminal AFAICT. It does allow you to double back
at Kings Cross. So you can go Finsbury Park-Kings Cross-Cambridge
(but you can't go via Liverpoot St or NXEA).

one that only lets you go via the GN ('FCC only'?)

Route Not London. Pragmatically not valid on anything other than FCC,
as they're the only operator.

, and one that lets you take the tube to Tottenham Hale and the
train from there ('not via London'?).

Not sure what that ticket is, but I'm pretty sure it's not a FPK-CBG
ticket. A London Terminals to CBG ticket, perhaps? Although I'm not
sure if that would be interavailable on the tube from TOM to FPK.


I quite often buy return versions of the latter when i want to do
some walking in the country; i can take the train out up the GN,
walk across to the WA, and take the train and tube home. I
actually often treat the walk as a break of journey, and use the
outward portion to go on to Cambridge for dinner, before coming home
(i do most of this walking with a friend from Cambridge). I doubt
this is permitted, but i haven't got in trouble yet.

Break of journey is permitted on most tickets, but we haven't
estabished what tiket you're using yyet, so it's difficult t be sure.

-roy

In article ,
Mizter T wrote:

My recollection is that a number of people have reported on here how
FCC (at least on the GN side of things) seem to issue extensions for
Travelcards as a conventional ticket from a specific origin station as
opposed to a Boundary Zone extention ticket (from the edge of a zone),
and indeed do so even in combination with a Day Travelcard when such a
combo isn't technically valid, but it gets passed by any ticket
checking staff as a matter of course.

Interesting, thanks.

So just wildly speculating, but I wonder whether staff (on the GN
side) might could have got into this habit a number of years ago
perhaps in the WAGN-era, say as the result of directions passed down
from managers with the aim of maximising ORCATS revenue, and it's all
just stuck? Something like that anyway.

Maybe. But I was very specific in what I asked for - I don't believe
they should be allowed to just ignore me. It's not like they said
(sorry, we don't offer that, how about this tiket instead. They just
silently took my money and sold me something I didn't ask for.)

It's like the whole MacDonalds Cola things (if you're old enough to
remember it). If you ask for a Coke they can't legally just give you
a MacDonalds Cola without telling you. Ditto giving me an FPK ticket
instead of a BZ2 ticket.


(All that said, requests for Travelcard extensions elsewhere don't
always result in one being issued with the proper BZ extension ticket
either - though in many cases it doesn't really matter, which I
suppose means it never becomes and issue and hence there are never any
efforts made to ensure it's done the correct way.)

KGX seem to get it right. In fact, the first time I used my gold card
for a discount at KGX, I didn't even think to ask for a Travelcard
extension but when I produced the gold record card the clerk just
issued it as a Travelcard extension without any prompting.

-roy

On Feb 25, 12:14*am, (Roy Badami) wrote:

In article ,
Mizter T wrote:

My recollection is that a number of people have reported on here how
FCC (at least on the GN side of things) seem to issue extensions for
Travelcards as a conventional ticket from a specific origin station as
opposed to a Boundary Zone extention ticket (from the edge of a zone),
and indeed do so even in combination with a Day Travelcard when such a
combo isn't technically valid, but it gets passed by any ticket
checking staff as a matter of course.

Interesting, thanks.

So just wildly speculating, but I wonder whether staff (on the GN
side) might could have got into this habit a number of years ago
perhaps in the WAGN-era, say as the result of directions passed down
from managers with the aim of maximising ORCATS revenue, and it's all
just stuck? Something like that anyway.

Maybe. *But I was very specific in what I asked for - I don't believe
they should be allowed to just ignore me. *It's not like they said
(sorry, we don't offer that, how about this tiket instead. *They just
silently took my money and sold me something I didn't ask for.)

It's like the whole MacDonalds Cola things (if you're old enough to
remember it). *If you ask for a Coke they can't legally just give you
a MacDonalds Cola without telling you. *Ditto giving me an FPK ticket
instead of a BZ2 ticket.

i.e. it's akin to 'passing off' (the cola scenario) - just to be clear
I wasn't trying to defend them, just pondering how this might have all
come about - yes, I absolutely agree that you should be sold the
ticket you want.


(All that said, requests for Travelcard extensions elsewhere don't
always result in one being issued with the proper BZ extension ticket
either - though in many cases it doesn't really matter, which I
suppose means it never becomes and issue and hence there are never any
efforts made to ensure it's done the correct way.)

KGX seem to get it right. *In fact, the first time I used my gold card
for a discount at KGX, I didn't even think to ask for a Travelcard
extension but when I produced the gold record card the clerk just
issued it as a Travelcard extension without any prompting.

Just curious which bit of KGX - the East Coast or the FCC ticket
office?

Another way of explaining it might just be that the Finsbury Park lot
aren't that on the ball I s'pose.

On Feb 25, 11:55*am, Mizter T wrote:
On Feb 25, 12:14*am, (Roy Badami) wrote:









In article ,
Mizter T wrote:

My recollection is that a number of people have reported on here how
FCC (at least on the GN side of things) seem to issue extensions for
Travelcards as a conventional ticket from a specific origin station as
opposed to a Boundary Zone extention ticket (from the edge of a zone),
and indeed do so even in combination with a Day Travelcard when such a
combo isn't technically valid, but it gets passed by any ticket
checking staff as a matter of course.

Interesting, thanks.

So just wildly speculating, but I wonder whether staff (on the GN
side) might could have got into this habit a number of years ago
perhaps in the WAGN-era, say as the result of directions passed down
from managers with the aim of maximising ORCATS revenue, and it's all
just stuck? Something like that anyway.

Maybe. *But I was very specific in what I asked for - I don't believe
they should be allowed to just ignore me. *It's not like they said
(sorry, we don't offer that, how about this tiket instead. *They just
silently took my money and sold me something I didn't ask for.)

It's like the whole MacDonalds Cola things (if you're old enough to
remember it). *If you ask for a Coke they can't legally just give you
a MacDonalds Cola without telling you. *Ditto giving me an FPK ticket
instead of a BZ2 ticket.

i.e. it's akin to 'passing off' (the cola scenario) - just to be clear
I wasn't trying to defend them, just pondering how this might have all
come about - yes, I absolutely agree that you should be sold the
ticket you want.



(All that said, requests for Travelcard extensions elsewhere don't
always result in one being issued with the proper BZ extension ticket
either - though in many cases it doesn't really matter, which I
suppose means it never becomes and issue and hence there are never any
efforts made to ensure it's done the correct way.)

KGX seem to get it right. *In fact, the first time I used my gold card
for a discount at KGX, I didn't even think to ask for a Travelcard
extension but when I produced the gold record card the clerk just
issued it as a Travelcard extension without any prompting.

Just curious which bit of KGX - the East Coast or the FCC ticket
office?

Another way of explaining it might just be that the Finsbury Park lot
aren't that on the ball I s'pose.

The FCC ticket office at Finsbury Park is a *long* way off the ball -
when I lived in FP I frequently had to go to KX to buy complicated
(but legit) tickets that should have been issue-able at FP, because
the FP FCC (WAGN at the time, I think, but same guys, different suits)
lot simply didn't have a clue.

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

In message , at 17:02:06
on Thu, 24 Feb 2011, Roy Badami remarked:

So it seems to me that FCC are deliberately refusing to sell me the
ticket I ask for because because there's another ticket that is in
identical in price and availability (this can't be an accident) but
ORCATS will allocate them a larger share of the ticket price
(presumably almost all - I think there may be the very odd journey
where change-at-Stevenage onto East Coast may be plausible).

It's the other way round. You can't sensibly change *to* EC at Stevenage
because the next stop will be Peterborough which is outside the
permitted travel envelope for getting to Cambridge.

*but* a FPK to Cambridge ticket has an easement such that it's valid via
KGX. So it's possible that you might travel Finsbury Park to Kings Cross
(on FCC) then up to Stevenage on EC, then change to FCC to complete the
journey. But it's a barmy exercise.
--
Roland Perry

And the fact that I can't make head or tail of any of this just shows
how absurdly complicated rail fares are!

peter

In message
, at
00:49:15 on Fri, 25 Feb 2011, peter remarked:
And the fact that I can't make head or tail of any of this just shows
how absurdly complicated rail fares are!

Let me take the points one at a time:

Unless the tickets are marked as specific to one train operator (eg "FCC
only") you can use any operator's trains on the route, even changing
trains on the way.

The ticket will always be valid on a direct train (one which calls at
both the start and finishing stations) but if you change trains then you
have to make sure you aren't travelling too far out of your way.

There's a set of complicated rules about that, but these are generally
based on common sense. (Examining the rulebook is normally done to prove
that journeys which defy common sense are in fact valid!)

So, for example, it's perfectly OK to take a [Peterborough or
Letchworth-bound] Finsbury Park train as far as Stevenage, then change
to a faster Cambridge train.

But you can't take a train all the way to Peterborough, then come back
to Cambridge via Ely.

Normally, you aren't allowed to take a train "in the wrong direction" in
order to make a faster trip. The classic example here is that you aren't
supposed to take a slow train from Foxton to Cambridge, then a fast to
Kings Cross (on a Foxton-London ticket), even though that may be
quicker.

But it has been decided (by the rulemakers) that it's OK to take a train
from Finsbury Park to Kings Cross, and then catch a train to Cambridge
(despite passing through Finsbury Park on the way). This is [one of
many] concessions known as an "easements".

Putting this all together (and the main point of my earlier posting) the
only way that you might be allowed to use an East Coast train on a trip
from Finsbury Park to Cambridge is if you went:

Finsbury Park - Kings Cross (FCC, easement)
Kings Cross - Stevenage (East Coast)
Stevenage - Cambridge (FCC)

But it's probably the case that this is never the quickest route, nor
the most sensible!
--
Roland Perry