"Mizter T" wrote in message

On Feb 26, 12:33 pm, Paul Corfield wrote:

On Sat, 26 Feb 2011 12:24:13 -0000, "Recliner"

wrote:
Which is fine and
dandy for regular commuters through that station, but if it's an
"event", I wouldn't have thought it likely that the footie fan or
concert goer would pass through that station again within three
days.

... except, of course, when they go home from the footie or event.

Quite. Hasn't this also been used at Sloane Square during the Flower
Show in the past?

I had a journey described as being 'auto-completed' when I was making
an incredibly last minute (pre-bongs) dash from one New Year's Eve
party to another a few years ago - when I got to my destination Tube
station (10/15 mins to midnight) the gates were all open and I think
the Oyster card readers were also actually off (bear in mind NYE free
travel kicks in at 2345), but when I checked later (next day) it was
shown as 'auto-completed'.

That's presumably slightly different -- I would imagine that all open
journeys will be auto-completed at that time. But what were you charged?
Did they just charge the minimum fare (or even free)?

On Feb 26, 12:08*pm, Roland Perry wrote:

In message , at 11:01:41
on Sat, 26 Feb 2011, Recliner remarked:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-12579263
and
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/mindthega...yter_blog.html

I must admit I wasn't aware of the autocomplete feature of Oyster.

I've never heard of it before.

* * * * When there is a football match for example they open the
* * * * barriers and implement something called "autocomplete".

* * * * That means the system in effect touches you out of the system
* * * * automatically without you having to do it. Sensors pick up cards
* * * * going through the barriers.

* * * * The problem is that to make sure your journey is completed by
* * * * the system you have to touch in at the same station within three
* * * * days. Or you get a maximum fare.

Speculating, they seem to be able to *read* the cards as you walk past
the barriers (feet away from the sensors perhaps) but can't *write* the
appropriate "touch-out refund" to the card. So save it up on that
specific gateline only, for three days, in case you happen to be able to
pick it up.

Of course, they could instead put this into their "you have a refund to
pick up" system. Or is this snake oil? (especially the 'reading at a
distance' part?)


I'm really not too convinced the journalist has got this right - I was
aware of the 'autocomplete' facility but hazy as to how it worked, but
I don't think this stuff about the "sensors" catching the Oyster cards
of people walking through open gatelines is correct.

My take on autocomplete is that it works in one of two ways, or
possibly in a combination of two ways...

(1) When a station is so crowded - or it is anticipated in advance
that it'll be so crowded - that gatelines are left open for exiting
passengers, then a network wide flag (across the whole Oyster system)
is set so that cards which are touched-in anywhere are opted-in to the
autocomplete system. When passengers re-enter the station (after the
event - football match etc), then the previous journey which had never
been recorded as being completed (because they never touched out) then
gets properly resolved by the system (and a new journey started of
course).

(2) There's no network wide flag set for cards that are touched-in -
instead, after the event is over, any pax entering the station who
present cards which have the last journey as being unresolved have
that previous journey auto-magically resolved (with the destination of
that previous journey being defined as the station they are re-
entering), and a new journey is started.

A third possibility is a variation on the first - a network wide flag
is set, and the 'entry charge' system is turned off (so for any cards
which are only validated once - i.e. only a touch-in or touch-out -
the system only charges the minimum fare from that station).

On Feb 26, 2:25*pm, "Recliner" wrote:

"Mizter T" wrote:
[snip]
I had a journey described as being 'auto-completed' when I was making
an incredibly last minute (pre-bongs) dash from one New Year's Eve
party to another a few years ago - when I got to my destination Tube
station (10/15 mins to midnight) the gates were all open and I think
the Oyster card readers were also actually off (bear in mind NYE free
travel kicks in at 2345), but when I checked later (next day) it was
shown as 'auto-completed'.

That's presumably slightly different -- I would imagine that all open
journeys will be auto-completed at that time. But what were you charged?
Did they just charge the minimum fare (or even free)?

I had assumed (and see my other post on this thread) that the 'entry
charge' system was possibly just switched off across the Oyster
network a little earlier in the evening on NYE - though now I wonder a
bit.

It was a journey from zone 1 (London Bridge or Borough I think) to
Camden Town - I was indeed charged, though it wouldn't be possible to
say if it was a z1 or a z1&2 journey as the off-peak flavour of the
latter costs the same as the former (this was a few years ago, but the
same applied back then too).

I did then make a journey back by Tube at some delightful hour like
5am (post free travel!) - so I suppose the unresolved journey could
have been auto-completed when I re-entered Camden Town then - however
I'm pretty sure that, despite having been in the company of Bacchus, I
would have/did in fact check what my earlier journey showed up as
using the journey history facility on the Tube ticket machines before
starting that journey (but I can't be absolutely certain - there is,
as I'm sure you'll understand, a degree of haziness here - it is,
however, the kind of thing I would have done anyway!).

On Feb 26, 1:11*pm, Roland Perry wrote:

In message , at 12:59:12 on Sat, 26 Feb
2011, tim.... remarked:

I must admit I wasn't aware of the autocomplete feature of Oyster.

I've never heard of it before.

* * * *When there is a football match for example they open the
* * * *barriers and implement something called "autocomplete".

* * * *That means the system in effect touches you out of the system
* * * *automatically without you having to do it. Sensors pick up cards
* * * *going through the barriers.

* * * *The problem is that to make sure your journey is completed by
* * * *the system you have to touch in at the same station within three
* * * *days. Or you get a maximum fare.

Speculating, they seem to be able to *read* the cards as you walk past
the barriers (feet away from the sensors perhaps) but can't *write* the
appropriate "touch-out refund" to the card. So save it up on that
specific gateline only, for three days, in case you happen to be able to
pick it up.

Of course, they could instead put this into their "you have a refund to
pick up" system. Or is this snake oil? (especially the 'reading at a
distance' part?)

They can't be "read" at a distance as they need the local RF loop to power
them.

They can be "overheard" at a distance if another device is already reading
them, but this isn't the case here.

(we need some real technical words for those two things. *I have no idea if
there are some already in common usage!)

So what *is* the action they refer to as "picking up cards going through
the barrier"?

I think it's simply the journalist getting in a muddle and jumping to
erroneous conclusions. I don't believe there's any 'long distance'
sensing or reading of Oyster cards going on whatsoever.

(Well, not as part of any fare collection process - I can imagine the
spooks and special branch plod surveillance people might have some
sort of 'long distance' RFID scanner which can sniff-out and read
chipped passports, pay-and-wave payment cards, Oyster cards and other
RFID equipped cards and such like - but that's veering rather off-
topic!)

On Feb 26, 12:35*pm, "Recliner" wrote:

"Paul Corfield" wrote:

On Sat, 26 Feb 2011 12:24:13 -0000, "Recliner"
wrote:

Which is fine and
dandy for regular commuters through that station, but if it's an
"event", I wouldn't have thought it likely that the footie fan or
concert goer would pass through that station again within three days.

... except, of course, when they go home from the footie or event.

As I read it, this is likely to happen on the way home, but I might have
misunderstood. I suppose it makes sense if it's on the way in, as you
suggest.

I think it'd be implemented 'on the way in' i.e. for crowds leaving a
station en-route to an event. After a large event then there are crowd
control measures on the entrance to Tube and rail stations (queueing
and such like), it's not a free for all - after all, the thing that's
to be avoided is crushing at a Tube/rail station. Therefore given the
controlled flow of people back into a station after an event, there's
time for them to touch-in (even if the gates are left open, as they
are in places).

On Feb 26, 1:40*pm, Martin Petrov
wrote:

Which is fine and
dandy for regular commuters through that station, but if it's an
"event", I wouldn't have thought it likely that the footie fan or
concert goer would pass through that station again within three days.

... except, of course, when they go home from the footie or event.

As I read it, this is likely to happen on the way home, but I might have
misunderstood. I suppose it makes sense if it's on the way in, as you
suggest.

I would expect that the key time for this would be after a football match
etc - turnstiles open and people in in football grounds for up to an hour
before the game - the ground is the empty within minutes. Same for a gig
or something similar. Witness queuing after games at Upton Park station
or Highbury and Islington or Fulham Broadway or shudder Wembley Park
after games - getting to the ground is substantially easier, and usually
nothing more than "a little busy".

See my other post - the whole point is that there *is* queueing after
games to get into stations, which means the flow is controlled, so
there's no 'opening of the flood gates' into a station after an event
(which would itself be rather dangerous).

I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that it's routinely implemented
everywhere either - rather, it's just an option that's available to
help deal with crowding issues.

In message
,
Mizter T writes

I'm really not too convinced the journalist has got this right

It's Tom Edwards, so what do you expect!

After considerable criticism on his blog from others (including TfL)
about his article, especially about open barriers being able to
mystically read Oysters at a distance, he's clarified a few points, and
says of "autocomplete":

This is used when there are large crowds and you are specifically told
not to touch out and the system will do it automatically. They use it
about 15 times a weekend - the issue is you eventually have to touch in
at that station within 3 days. (That all came from tfl's Head of
ticketing so I assume it is correct)"

I guess that makes sense in that most people going to the event will
return the same way, and thus touch in a few hours later, thus resolving
the incomplete journey on arrival, although it doesn't cater for those
who choose to return via a different mode of transport.

Incidentally, I noticed that Wimbledon is one of the stations with a
high record of "overcharging". I bet that's large numbers of people
still not understanding the peculiar Oyster arrangements there.
--
Paul Terry

In message , Paul Corfield
writes

I would be surprised if the tube / rail to tramlink arrangements were
the sole cause of problems at Wimbledon. The last time I was there (a
fair while ago) there was signage explaining what to do for tramlink
journeys.

I wondered if it could be "wise guys" imagining that they are getting a
free tram ride if they don't touch in on platform 10, but not realising
that that leaves them with an incomplete journey tube or rail journey.
But then you'd think they'd have twigged after the first few attempts!
--
Paul Terry

It's to be expected that the majority of people will re-enter
at Sloane Square after the Show (or whatever else they were doing) so
their journey is "auto completed" at that time.
--
Paul C

Not me! In circumstances like Chelsea or any kind of "event" I'll often
use the nearest station to go to the event but I'll do my utmost to avoid it
on the way back.

"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 26 Feb 2011 20:23:30 -0000, "Graham Harrison"
wrote:


It's to be expected that the majority of people will re-enter
at Sloane Square after the Show (or whatever else they were doing) so
their journey is "auto completed" at that time.

Not me! In circumstances like Chelsea or any kind of "event" I'll often
use the nearest station to go to the event but I'll do my utmost to avoid
it
on the way back.

I carefully used the word "majority" rather than "all" !
--
Paul C

Yes, I did realise that, I was being deliberately obtuse. But why should I
be penalised for trying to avoid the crush?