In message , at 13:59:26 on
Mon, 28 Feb 2011, Mizter T remarked:
At the moment I've only got one paywave card (and that's combined
with Oyster which has, erm, potentially unresolved issues on how
the gate will resolve which half I'm trying to use...)

Curious as to what the expiry date is?

Quite soon (I assume the Oyster component doesn't expire at the same
time as the rest of it - there's about a year's usage credit on it at
my current rate!!)

I would expect the Oyster bit to carry on working - it'd be interesting
to hear what the official advice will be from Barclaycard - I suspect
they'd probably recommend that customers arrange for any unused credit
to be somehow transferred across to a new (or possibly existing) Oyster
card, simply for the reason that carrying around an expired credit card
might lead to (customer) confusion.

If I get a new "combined" card (I have no reason to expect not - apart
from some FUD posted in the NG) I wonder how they will propose
transferring the Oyster credit from the old to new? I've only just spent
half an hour on the phone getting the old one online registered and
activated for online enquiry.

I've still got the file on my desk... hmm ...

I'm liable for the first £0 of any fraudulent loss [good!]

The maximum single contactless transaction is a variable, but currently
£10 (and also has "100% fraud protection").

But then they say I'm liable for all *Oyster* losses (eg from a stolen
card) until I report the loss. I wonder whether that includes being
liable for any auto-topups triggered by Oyster? I have a feeling that
burying this in the small print, while elsewhere in headlines saying I'm
not liable for fraudulent use of "your Barclaycard", might not pass
muster in court. Despite the T&C trying to drive a contractual wedge
between the card itself and what they call the "Oyster application"
loaded onto it. Something to watch, for the future, when these things
get more common.

And I have to contact TfL in order to transfer the Oyster Credit to a
new card (or to otherwise rescue the credit if Barclaycard cancel the
card because I've been naughty, or indeed withdraw the Oyster-ness for
no reason whatsoever).
--
Roland Perry

"Roland Perry" wrote:

In message , at 13:59:26 on Mon,
28 Feb 2011, Mizter T remarked:
[snip]
I would expect the Oyster bit to carry on working - it'd be interesting to
hear what the official advice will be from Barclaycard - I suspect they'd
probably recommend that customers arrange for any unused credit to be
somehow transferred across to a new (or possibly existing) Oyster card,
simply for the reason that carrying around an expired credit card might
lead to (customer) confusion.

If I get a new "combined" card (I have no reason to expect not - apart
from some FUD posted in the NG) I wonder how they will propose
transferring the Oyster credit from the old to new? I've only just spent
half an hour on the phone getting the old one online registered and
activated for online enquiry.

Barclaycard are not offering OnePulse cards to new customers any more - see:
http://www.barclaycard-onepulse.co.uk/

I expect that on expiry, the replacement card won't feature any separate
Oyster functionality (i.e. it won't be a 'combined' card) - in other words
customers will be migrated over on to a new type of card, and the product
will be discontinued. This would make sense, because as and when 'pay and
wave' cards are accepted for fare payment purposes in London, there wouldn't
be any need for a separate Oyster element, plus it'd remove the issue about
how to deal with a combo 'pay and wave' + Oyster card (which is what the
OnePulse card is). OK, the ability for pax to load season Travelcards onto
the same card would be lost.

What happens w.r.t. replacements for lost and stolen OnePulse cards might
provide a clue as to what will happen in the future (e.g. either the
replacement card comes without the Oyster element, or else the expiry date
being a lot sooner than would otherwise be the case).

All speculation on my part, but I'd place a small wager (say, a zones 1-9
off-peak caps worth!) that the OnePulse / combo card concept has come to the
end of its short life, shoved aside by the prospect of this new 'pay and
wave' fare payment system.


I've still got the file on my desk... hmm ...

I'm liable for the first £0 of any fraudulent loss [good!]

The maximum single contactless transaction is a variable, but currently
£10 (and also has "100% fraud protection").

But then they say I'm liable for all *Oyster* losses (eg from a stolen
card) until I report the loss. I wonder whether that includes being liable
for any auto-topups triggered by Oyster? I have a feeling that burying
this in the small print, while elsewhere in headlines saying I'm not
liable for fraudulent use of "your Barclaycard", might not pass muster in
court. Despite the T&C trying to drive a contractual wedge between the
card itself and what they call the "Oyster application" loaded onto it.
Something to watch, for the future, when these things get more common.

And I have to contact TfL in order to transfer the Oyster Credit to a new
card (or to otherwise rescue the credit if Barclaycard cancel the card
because I've been naughty, or indeed withdraw the Oyster-ness for no
reason whatsoever).

The OnePulse card never really seemed anything more than a credit card (with
payWave) playing host to a functionally separate Oyster card - best
exhibited I think by there being no back-end link up between Barclaycard and
TfL/Oyster when it came to reporting a lost card (i.e. the customer has to
contact Barclaycard and TfL's Oyster people separately). It didn't even come
with auto-topup already set up.

In article ,
(Mizter T) wrote:

I don't think the fact that children wouldn't be able to make use
of the 'pay and wave' fare payment facility inherently invalidates
the whole exercise - though Colin Roseienthal seems to think so, so
maybe your of that opinion too?

Rosenstiel, please!

In classic Usenet fashion you are somewhat overstating what I was saying.
It's a weakness with the system perpetuating an already annoying weakness,
not a show stopper.

All 'child' Oyster cards - 5-10, 11-15 and 16+ (for 16-18 year
olds) flavours - are issued to specific individuals, and come with
their photo printed on to the card along with their name and an
expiry date (TfL refer to them as "Oyster photocards" - it's worth
noting they are integral, i.e. it's all on the one card, there's no
separate photocard).

For UK residents whose age can be verified online (with a passport
or driving licence number), then the card can be sent to their UK
address. For those coming from abroad, or UK residents whose age
cannot be verified online, then the card can be collected from one
of TfL's Travel Information Centres (Heathrow, KX, Euston,
Victoria, Liverpool St) on production of proof of identity (with
proof of age).

Applying for one of these card costs GBP10 (some applications used
to be free, I can't remember which ones right now).

So a parent living on London needs to buy a child oyster card at age 5, 11
and 16 at £10 each time? Makes Adult Oyster cards look cheap! My parents
never had to pay any of that sort of thing. I just got half fares.

TfL do flag up the existence of the child off-peak Day Travelcard
(now GBP 3.00), and suggest that for a few days usage this might be
a better option.

That would be more reasonable if they were available other than by joining
long ticket office queues at most underground stations where one might
want to buy one.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In article ,
(Mizter T) wrote:

wrote:

(Mizter T) wrote:

That's not what I was getting at. Children aged 5-10 travel free on
the Tube, DLR and LO "if travelling with an adult who has a valid
ticket, Freedom Pass or Veterans photocard or who is using pay as you
go" - that covers up to four children per adult - see:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/14554.aspx
(Children under 5 travel for free too, but they're dealt with
separately as they have to be accompanied by an adult.)

I don't see any reason to imagine why this free travel for
accompanied children up to the age of 10 (inclusive) would be any
different if the adult was travelling using a 'pay and wave'
credit/debit card instead of an Oyster card.

What about 11-15 year olds? How many of them have cards?

Do you mean debit/credit cards?

Yes, I couldn't think of a better generic term than "cards" other than
"plastic" which I thought too slang-like.

Well, more have them than they once
would have, but as discussed elsewhere this 'pay and wave' fare
payment facility just isn't going to encompass child fares as well,
it wouldn't be workable. 11-15 year olds therefore are going to
need a ticket of some sort, just as they do at present.

A question for you Colin - do you think the fact that this upcoming
'pay and wave' facility isn't going to accommodate for an adult
travelling with 11-15 year old children, without those children
holding separate tickets, inherently mean the whole idea is invalid
- regardless of the number of other people who would benefit from it?

I think that the present system strongly tends to rip off visitors from
outside London (and completely casual users from inside London but I doubt
there are many of them). It's all part of the general problem in public
transport that it is often hard work to use the systems if you are not a
regular customer.

I thought Paywave was supposed to level things up a bit but it continues
the horrendous treatment of non-London children over the age of 10 who get
charged full fares and have a lot more hassle getting any tickets unless
they get day Travelcards from their stations of origin outside London (so
no use for overnight stays).

It's the same for me if I stay overnight, or would be if I didn't use my
bike as I will tomorrow/Wednesday. All the ticketing integration that
Capitalcards brought in is being slowly eroded.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In article ,
(Mizter T) wrote:

"tim...." wrote:
[snip]
To be clear, my issue here is that given that it is quite likely
(IMHO) that a large percentage of casual foreign (including
remote UK) users are going to be families with children and that
this system can't cope with the children, why are they doing it?
If the family are going to have to queue up to buy the child's
tickets they might just as well buy an adult oyster (or 2) at the
same time.

This looks to me like a vanity project, OR a route to using it to
replace something that I'd rather they didn't replace.

What on earth makes you think that vast numbers of Londoners and
regular visitors to the capital aren't going to use this system
(instead of using an Oyster card)?

We've all got our Oyster cards now!

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In article , (Roland
Perry) wrote:

In message , at
18:49:07 on Sun, 27 Feb 2011, remarked:

If you want a travelcard, can you not buy it from the machines in
the main line station?

Sadly, even the closest machines in the main station are a very
long walk (at the entrance to the Thameslink platforms, and also
round the corner in the Circle, or upstairs at the MML barriers).
So while you might be able to buy a Travelcard (I don't know, and
it's not obvious that you can) it's not somewhere a Eurostar
arrivee is going to know about or stumble over.

I thought child tickets were only available from ticket offices these
days?

Very possibly (it was certainly the case last time I needed to buy
one for my child). I think that there's a bit of a disconnect
between reality and some people's expectations when it comes to
child ticketing. In other words, I'm not sure any automated child
ticketing is possible in the current anti-fraud atmosphere.

Which does leave us hanging out "tourists with children" to dry,
when it comes to new initiatives such as this (or indeed Oyster).

What does this mean, when it comes to decisions about whether to
"queue up or pay more", well that will depend on the urgency, and
the cost (loss of leisure opportunity) to a family of spending 20
minutes in a queue.

My children (now over 18) were mainly able to get Day Travelcards, thereby
avoiding the queues. The game starts all over again in the autumn when my
granddaughter reaches the age of 5 but in the meantime the premium for
Travelcards has been so inflated (from Cambridge only) that they are
rarely worth buying. (1) I presume you can't get them from Nottingham at
all?

(1) except the Super-Off peak versions at weekends as long as I don't try
to use them on SWT.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In article ,
(Mizter T) wrote:

wrote:

I don't think I've ever been to Kings Cross St Pancras tube needing to
get a ticket/top up Oyster without queues at similar to that. I always
try to have enough credit on Oyster to escape the place before needing
to top up. Westminster isn't much better either, mainly because not
enough windows are staffed most of the time.

Head to the northern ticket hall which never seems to be that busy,
or to the FCC ticket machines - the ones in St Pancras (for
Thameslink) certainly 'do' Oyster (as do the ticket windows I
believe), not so sure about the ones at Kings Cross suburban.

So the answer is to walk a long way in the wrong direction. Terrific!

--
Colin Rosenstiel

"tim...." wrote:

"Mizter T" wrote:

"tim...." wrote:
[snip]
To be clear, my issue here is that given that it is quite likely (IMHO)
that a large percentage of casual foreign (including remote UK) users
are going to be families with children and that this system can't cope
with the children, why are they doing it? If the family are going to
have to queue up to buy the child's tickets they might just as well buy
an adult oyster (or 2) at the same time.

This looks to me like a vanity project, OR a route to using it to
replace something that I'd rather they didn't replace.


What on earth makes you think that vast numbers of Londoners and regular
visitors to the capital aren't going to use this system (instead of using
an Oyster card)?

The fact that previous attempts of "micro-payments" by stored-card have
failed miserably.

Perhaps this variation will be different


I'm fairly sceptical about 'micro-payments' too - though it should be noted
that what's being proposed is most definitely not a 'stored card' system
(that description however does fit Oyster PAYG - a system which couldn't be
described as having failed), it's a post-payment system. That aside, I do
genuinely wonder whether this might be different - indeed, the ability to
pay for fares easily could actually drive adoption, public acceptance and
understanding, and ultimately usage of this technology.

All that said, as someone who's quite capable of mislaying things, I'm wary
of 'pay and wave' cards simply because someone could run off and make a
number of sundry purchases before I even noticed the card was missing.
Indeed, I can possibly imagine myself specifically requesting a card without
such a function from my bank (as and when it starts issuing them). Hmm.

wrote:

In article ,
(Mizter T) wrote:

A question for you Colin - do you think the fact that this upcoming
'pay and wave' facility isn't going to accommodate for an adult
travelling with 11-15 year old children, without those children
holding separate tickets, inherently mean the whole idea is invalid
- regardless of the number of other people who would benefit from it?

I think that the present system strongly tends to rip off visitors from
outside London (and completely casual users from inside London but I doubt
there are many of them). It's all part of the general problem in public
transport that it is often hard work to use the systems if you are not a
regular customer.

I thought Paywave was supposed to level things up a bit but it continues
the horrendous treatment of non-London children over the age of 10 who get
charged full fares and have a lot more hassle getting any tickets unless
they get day Travelcards from their stations of origin outside London (so
no use for overnight stays).

Eh? But children *can* buy Day Travelcards *within* London - the off-peak
version (zones 1-6) currently costs GBP 3.00.

The 11-15 Oyster photocard is available to children aged 11-15 who live
outside London. Yes, you need to apply in advance; yes you need to pay GBP
10 for it, yes, it's not spontaneous; yes, the child needs to remember to
bring it - but it's available and it's not a secret:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/14310.aspx

How do you propose that a 'pay and wave' fare payment system would work for
multiple people travelling together with one card? (Without just allowing
accompanying children aged 11-15 to travel for free, which isn't going to
happen.)


It's the same for me if I stay overnight, or would be if I didn't use my
bike as I will tomorrow/Wednesday. All the ticketing integration that
Capitalcards brought in is being slowly eroded.

Eh? What's the same for you? (Really - I don't get what you're saying.)

I disagree with the notion that ticketing integration is being eroded - what
is an annoyance is that the situation on National Rail is subtly different
(e.g. no free travel for accompanied children aged 5-10), but that's not
TfL's fault.

wrote:

In article ,
(Mizter T) wrote:

I don't think the fact that children wouldn't be able to make use
of the 'pay and wave' fare payment facility inherently invalidates
the whole exercise - though Colin Roseienthal seems to think so, so
maybe your of that opinion too?

Rosenstiel, please!

Ouch - my apologies - what a mess I made of that!


In classic Usenet fashion you are somewhat overstating what I was saying.
It's a weakness with the system perpetuating an already annoying weakness,
not a show stopper.

All 'child' Oyster cards - 5-10, 11-15 and 16+ (for 16-18 year
olds) flavours - are issued to specific individuals, and come with
their photo printed on to the card along with their name and an
expiry date (TfL refer to them as "Oyster photocards" - it's worth
noting they are integral, i.e. it's all on the one card, there's no
separate photocard).

For UK residents whose age can be verified online (with a passport
or driving licence number), then the card can be sent to their UK
address. For those coming from abroad, or UK residents whose age
cannot be verified online, then the card can be collected from one
of TfL's Travel Information Centres (Heathrow, KX, Euston,
Victoria, Liverpool St) on production of proof of identity (with
proof of age).

Applying for one of these card costs GBP10 (some applications used
to be free, I can't remember which ones right now).

So a parent living on London needs to buy a child oyster card at age 5, 11
and 16 at £10 each time? Makes Adult Oyster cards look cheap! My parents
never had to pay any of that sort of thing. I just got half fares.

You didn't have free travel on buses (& trams) up to the age of 15 inclusive
(and 16 - 18 if a London resident in full time education), you didn't have
free Tube/DLR/LO travel (and a few NR routes) if accompanied by an adult,
and you didn't enjoy an off-peak PAYG price cap (zones 1-9) of £1.30.

It might be a bit more complicated than in days of yore, but it's a *damn
sight cheaper* to travel around London as a child or young person these days
than it was for years and years beforehand (thanks to these Livingstonian
era innovations, and indeed thanks to Boris for maintaining them) - and I
wholeheartedly approve of that.

(Though, FWIW, at least some of these GBP 10 charges for child Oyster
photocard applications came in recently under Boris, where they used to be
free.)


TfL do flag up the existence of the child off-peak Day Travelcard
(now GBP 3.00), and suggest that for a few days usage this might be
a better option.

That would be more reasonable if they were available other than by joining
long ticket office queues at most underground stations where one might
want to buy one.

I can't speak for the policy of not offering them at LU ticket machines. I
can say that they're available from NR ticket machines.