"Cast_Iron" wrote in message
...
"Edward Cowling" wrote in message
...

I still consider the bus as drop in
centres on wheels and would rather
walk 5 miles in the rain than use one.

What is the overall perception of them
out there in Internet land ??

Why do so many social inadequates insist on demonstrating the fact?

His point is valid for certain neighbourhoods, perhaps 50% or so of London's
area. In the rest of London (including Central London) bus use is definitely
not the province of the underclass.

I've never been threatened or accosted on a bus in my life, so Edward should
stop worrying and help "us" to outnumber "them" in more and more parts of
London.

--
John Rowland - Spamtrapped
Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html
A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood.
That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line -
It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes

On Sat, 20 Dec 2003 20:11:44 -0000, "Edward Cowling"
wrote:

Someone said to me the other day that if nothing
else Ken Livingstone had made buses an acceptable
way to travel.

Everyone uses buses these days, they said.

ISTR that some recent statistics said the proportion of Londoners who
don't use buses has fallen from 28% to 21%. Sounds like a decent
improvement to me.

Do they ? I still consider the bus as drop in
centres on wheels and would rather walk 5 miles
in the rain than use one.

What a patronising and insulting remark. I'm surprised you don't possess
a chauffeur driven limousine.

What is the overall perception of them out there
in Internet land ??

I've used buses for years whether up in the North East or down here in
London. They helped me put together my geography of London far better
than the Tube ever did.

I use them all the time and they are definitely more convenient than the
Tube for certain key corridors in Central London and are a necessity for
trips beyond Zone 2 where the rail network cannot cover every journey
option efficiently.

While I'm not Ken's biggest fan I have changed my mind about his bus
policy. I think the overall service level and quality have improved
markedly and there is no doubt that this (and cheaper fares) have
attracted passengers. I remain a bit concerned about the projected costs
of running the network as a whole as I wonder about the efficiency that
is being delivered.

Paradoxically I am also concerned that a lot of planned improvements in
the suburbs are being quietly axed to try to contain the budget
increases. While I understand the Central London emphasis to date (C
Charge) I think it has possibly gone too far and money really needs to
be spent in the suburbs because many routes really need more buses and
capacity on them now.

My final concern is whether we've moved from innovation into gimmicks.
Artics have a place but the recent announcements about them replacing
routemasters (normal double decks on the 25) on the 12, 25 and 73 make
me wonder whether TfL have latched onto one solution for many problems.
These routes are very busy, carry people over long distances and I think
artics will force more people to stand for far longer. This is a
reduction in quality in my view and I think it will prove to be a
mistake. I have similar criticisms of cashless boarding and changes to
publicity provision that I think are half baked and badly executed. The
concepts sound fine but the reality is a long way away from the original
intent.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 11:17:21 +0000, Paul Corfield
wrote:

My final concern is whether we've moved from innovation into gimmicks.
Artics have a place but the recent announcements about them replacing
routemasters (normal double decks on the 25) on the 12, 25 and 73 make
me wonder whether TfL have latched onto one solution for many problems.
These routes are very busy, carry people over long distances and I think
artics will force more people to stand for far longer. This is a
reduction in quality in my view and I think it will prove to be a
mistake. I have similar criticisms of cashless boarding and changes to
publicity provision that I think are half baked and badly executed. The
concepts sound fine but the reality is a long way away from the original
intent.

The 73 goes down Oxford Street, right? I think the bendies would be
proposed for that route on that basis - load a lot of people very
quickly for a short distance. This doesn't help those who will have
to stand for long distances in the outer parts of the route, but I'm
personally really surprised this route hasn't gone bendy *much*
earlier - indeed, perhaps, as one of the first.

Apart from the jumping on and off between stops, I find Routemasters
perform quite poorly on *very* busy routes such as these, certainly
now pay before you board has been implemented. They're cramped, do
not permit standing for those who wish to unless the bus is full (and
when it is, shoving past people is difficult) and have only one
entrance/exit which will require flows in both directions from both
sides. Two-doored deckers move people quicker at the stops, and
bendies yet faster.

I'm in two minds about totally cashless operation; it'd make more
sense to have all-door boarding with payment at the driver allowed for
those without tickets on the outer reaches of these routes. Oh, and
those ticket machines are appallingly unintuitive[1], and need new
software now.

[1] They are similar to pay-and-display parking machines, with which
people are familiar. *Why*, given that change is not given and
multiple purchases not possible, do you select the ticket first and
then pay? Most parking machines work the other way around. You
should also be able to buy two bus singles for a gbp2 coin, which you
ludicrously cannot at present.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
is a valid email address, but is sent to /dev/null.
Try my first name at the above domain instead if you want to e-mail me.

On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 11:36:01 GMT, (Neil
Williams) wrote:

On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 11:17:21 +0000, Paul Corfield
wrote:

My final concern is whether we've moved from innovation into gimmicks.
Artics have a place but the recent announcements about them replacing
routemasters (normal double decks on the 25) on the 12, 25 and 73 make
me wonder whether TfL have latched onto one solution for many problems.
These routes are very busy, carry people over long distances and I think
artics will force more people to stand for far longer. This is a
reduction in quality in my view and I think it will prove to be a
mistake. I have similar criticisms of cashless boarding and changes to
publicity provision that I think are half baked and badly executed. The
concepts sound fine but the reality is a long way away from the original
intent.

The 73 goes down Oxford Street, right? I think the bendies would be
proposed for that route on that basis - load a lot of people very
quickly for a short distance. This doesn't help those who will have
to stand for long distances in the outer parts of the route, but I'm
personally really surprised this route hasn't gone bendy *much*
earlier - indeed, perhaps, as one of the first.

But one of the big problems with artics is that it is impossible to get
them onto stops in a straight line. Therefore the back sticks out
preventing the passage of other vehicles - especially buses. On Oxford
St there are so many traffic islands that I can see one or two artics
that are badly parked while at stops bringing the whole street to a
halt. They are also twice as long as a normal bus which will simply
exacerbate the already chronic congestion in Oxford St and at Oxford
Circus where routes 12 and 25 will stand.

The other point you miss about route 73 is the extremely busy section
via Stoke Newington, Newington Green and Islington. This area is poorly
served by the Tube and therefore has very high bus demand. You cannot
get on 73s currently. I have great doubts as to whether artics where
more people will have to stand in crush conditions represent an
improvement in quality compared to a Routemaster.

Apart from the jumping on and off between stops, I find Routemasters
perform quite poorly on *very* busy routes such as these, certainly
now pay before you board has been implemented. They're cramped, do
not permit standing for those who wish to unless the bus is full (and
when it is, shoving past people is difficult) and have only one
entrance/exit which will require flows in both directions from both
sides. Two-doored deckers move people quicker at the stops, and
bendies yet faster.

But the point surely is that sufficient buses should be provided to meet
the demand so that standing, pushing past people etc is not an issue.
While I recognise some of your remarks about Routemasters I experience
far more instances of severe congestion on opo buses because there is no
one to manage where people sit, enforce the standing capacity rules and
also to make sure people get off before others get on. Many of these
issues are to do with passenger safety and it is demonstrably clear that
conditions become quite unacceptable on OPO buses because the driver
cannot or will not enforce the rules; in fact on an artic I do not
believe it is possible.

I'm in two minds about totally cashless operation; it'd make more
sense to have all-door boarding with payment at the driver allowed for
those without tickets on the outer reaches of these routes. Oh, and
those ticket machines are appallingly unintuitive[1], and need new
software now.

As I discovered when a lady from Newcastle was having grave problems
trying to purchase a ticket for the 507 on Horseferry Rd. I have to say
though that she had not read the instructions which I pointed out to
her. I appreciate people use intuition when using "familiar" machines
but all the cashless machines do have instructions on them!

My main observation about these machines is that they are cheap and
therefore lacking in functionality and sophistication. I don't believe
they are up to the job.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Paul Corfield wrote in
:

Artics have a place but the recent announcements about them replacing
routemasters (normal double decks on the 25) on the 12, 25 and 73 make

You you poing me to this announcment about 12's Thanks

"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
...

I have similar criticisms of cashless boarding and
changes to publicity provision that I think are half
baked and badly executed. The concepts sound
fine but the reality is a long way away from the original
intent.

Could you please elaborate? Thanks.

--
John Rowland - Spamtrapped
Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html
A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood.
That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line -
It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes

On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 22:57:30 -0000, "John Rowland"
wrote:

"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
.. .

I have similar criticisms of cashless boarding and
changes to publicity provision that I think are half
baked and badly executed. The concepts sound
fine but the reality is a long way away from the original
intent.

Could you please elaborate? Thanks.

As you asked so nicely :-)

On cashless boarding I think the street machines are too cheap and of
poor quality. From comments on various groups there are reliability
issues with them, they are not intuitive to use and they are already
being modified to reduce tampering with the coin slot. Their limited
functionality and lack of change giving creates issues for the future,
potentially imposes limitations on the fare levels that can be sensibly
charged in future thus meaning larger than (strictly) necessary leaps in
fares in the future. There is also the rather obvious problem of the
machine staying at the normal stop which might be closed due to
roadworks leaving people with a walk to and fro from a temporary stop.
This was the case with the w/b stop at Warren St recently. The temporary
stop was a least 1 min away from the machine - there was no notice at
the temporary stop to advise people they HAD to go to the machine to buy
a ticket in advance. That is not passenger friendly.

The rules that the drivers have to operate to are also not very
friendly. I understand that TfL have to have rules and that they have to
try to apply them or else the concept will never stick but there are too
many instances of people being kicked off buses to go to machines,
people being abused by drivers for not complying with the rules, the
opposite case of drivers bending the rules and there being no
consistency. You also have the odd discrepancy of conductor buses having
one set of rules, artics having another and other buses in the cashless
zone operated to other rules. No wonder people are confused.

I do understand the benefits that TfL are trying to deliver but the
current position is a mess. I cannot see the existing concept working
across London. I hope Oyster will unlock a lot of the problems when bus
pre-pay starts as the fraud check is done by the card / reader interface
and the transaction is simple. The boarding policy on artics is also
encouraging fraud as I do not believe the level of revenue check is in
place at levels that would act as deterrent. Again I understand there is
a business case trade off between revenue lost and running time gained
but I feel very uncomfortable with taxpayers effectively subsidising an
increase in public transport fraud.

On publicity provision I am concerned about a trend towards dumbing down
information to passengers. I accept I am lucky in that I can read a
timetable and a map. I know there are many people who struggle with
these tasks although I cannot comprehend what it must be like. I will
happily say at the outset that I am a traditionalist who links to be
able to

a) buy or obtain detailed timetables for a network
b) buy or obtain a high quality network wide route map.

TfL provide neither of those things. There are various local guides and
the quadrant maps. These are often very hard to obtain without a fight
although I accept the local one is usually posted through your letter
box. Information on public services should be a right not a privilege
and no one should have to go through fifty steps to try to get a bus
timetable or guide. Although there are lots of shiny bus station offices
apparently stuffed with booklets you try and find the man who has the
key! And if you find him try to get a civil response to a request for a
book or a map - it's rare that you get a decent response.

TfL have closed down many travel information centres including recently
opened ones in the suburbs as well as popular ones in Central London.
This is a retrograde step.

I dislike the Journey Planner and find it cumbersome to use. I believe
there is too much emphasis on internet provided information and this has
been at the cost of the more traditional "channels". While I am very
happy to use the Internet the two sites I use the most to get at
detailed London bus information are not run by TfL at all - ironic isn't
it?

www.busmap.co.uk
www.londonbusroutes.net for those who may be interested!

oh and www.firstlondontimetables.co.uk is good for First's services in
London. I can actually get the proper time for every bus on my local
service via this site - hooray.

Bus stop information panels are being dumbed down to the extent that
they are useless. They are also inaccurate - an example being route 34
where the stop specific panels say buses run every 6-12 mins Monday to
Friday. This is quite wrong - there are about 2 intervals in the early
morning when a couple of buses leave 6 mins apart because the running
time increases to reflect traffic conditions and they arrive 8 mins
apart at the terminus. Buses actually run every 8-9 mins for the better
part of the day and then every 12 in the evening. To say every 6-12
could mean every 6 or every 12 or every 6 then 12 then 6 then 12. It is
all very unclear and unhelpful - all because a computer trawled the base
information and found the minimum and maximum headways. Why is it a
state secret to know the exact time a bus is supposed to turn up at your
stop? - they can do this for high frequency services in the Netherlands
and Germany with no difficulty. All the base information exists - why
can't the user have easy and convenient access to it?

If you read Ken's Transport Strategy it promises much in the field of
information and publicity. The result to date is very disappointing in
that (IMO) the quality has gone down, it is harder to obtain, there is a
"one size fits all" policy and I don't think it is really any easier for
car owners or occasional users to feel comfortable with understanding
what the transport network offers. There is a long, long way to go.

Now I expect Mr Woolley to come running along shortly to defend London
Buses so I'll give him a wave now :-)))
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Edward Cowling wrote:
Someone said to me the other day that if nothing
else Ken Livingstone had made buses an acceptable
way to travel.

Everyone uses buses these days, they said.

Do they ? I still consider the bus as drop in
centres on wheels and would rather walk 5 miles
in the rain than use one.

What is the overall perception of them out there
in Internet land ??

They stink - literally! I have health and mobility problems and often have
to visit the Royal London Hospital in Whitechapel. If I use my car the
journey time from home (on the Isle of Dogs) is an average of 7 minutes and,
as a local resident with a parking permit, I can park in nearby residents'
bays for free or use my Blue Badge on a yellow line. If I use the bus the
journey time can increase to up to 2 hours (one way!). The average wait for
a D7 to Mile End is about half an hour (scheduled every ten minutes). I
cannot use the underground as I can't manage the stairs at Mile End or
Whitechapel stations so I have to use the 25 bus. The buses are so crowded
(NOT rush hours) that several go by before I can get on one and even then
the wait can be up to an hour between buses - only the one route between Bow
and Aldgate on the main A11 into the City! When I do get on one there are
no seats available and I get crushed with people swearing at me because my
walking stick's in their way!

The other week a seat (reserved for disabled) became available next to where
I was standing. As I went to sit I was shoved out of the way and nearly
pushed over by a healthy young woman who pretended not to speak English -
until she forgot herself and started talking to her standing friend in loud
Cockney English.

While waiting at stops (and sometimes on the bus itself) I get accosted by
(usually Scottish) gentlemen ? saying "Gi'ussa quid mister" or similar,
accompanied by the wafting stench of stale booze and dirt.

The journey itself (Mile End to Whitechapel) is only between a mile and a
mile and a half yet, because of traffic, can take half an hour. Like I said
previously, I can do it in 5-7 minutes driving using faster alternative
roads to the bus routes.

While this impossible situation exists there is NO WAY I'm going to stop
using my car.
--
Phil ,,,^.".^,,,


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.553 / Virus Database: 345 - Release Date: 18/12/2003

On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 11:25:26 -0000, "Redonda"
wrote:

I
cannot use the underground as I can't manage the stairs at Mile End or
Whitechapel stations so I have to use the 25 bus. The buses are so crowded
(NOT rush hours) that several go by before I can get on one and even then
the wait can be up to an hour between buses - only the one route between Bow
and Aldgate on the main A11 into the City! When I do get on one there are
no seats available and I get crushed with people swearing at me because my
walking stick's in their way!
Well, you'll be glad to hear that Route 25 will receive articulated
buses in 2004 - which should help solve the crowding problems....


Rob.

--
rob at robertwoolley dot co dot uk

In message , Robert Woolley
writes
Well, you'll be glad to hear that Route 25 will receive articulated
buses in 2004 - which should help solve the crowding problems....

Do you mean the bendy-buses?
Now that will be interesting when they come three in a row and stretch
all the way to Bow..
BTW, does anyone know why the count-down thing was removed from the
bus-stop outside Mile End tube station?
--
Kat "bears, said the taxi driver, is sixpence extra,
sticky bears is ninepence"