On 12/03/2011 00:48, john b wrote:

Many UK-based train companies have been successful (or at least,
profitable) at running public transport overseas - Stagecoach, First
and NEG all do, and Arriva did well enough that Deutsche Bahn paid two
billion euros for them and put Arriva management in charge of all its
international operations.

Though they is the issue that foreign state-owned[1] companies can buy
up "British" businesses, but we have no equivalent doing the opposite.
BRB Residuary isn't going to be bidding for any German operating
contracts, and while French companies can run our passenger trains,
British firms - state or private - can't run theirs. If the Arriva deal
goes wrong, will the Bundestag allow DB to go the way of GNER and NXEC?


[1] Germans often claim DB is "privatised" because it is structured as a
company rather than as a ministry of railways. By that definition, many
British nationalised industries were privately owned, not nationalised.
--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

On Fri, 11 Mar 2011, Paul Corfield wrote:

On Fri, 11 Mar 2011 21:03:32 +0000, Tom Anderson
wrote:

On Tue, 8 Mar 2011, Paul Corfield wrote:

I would suggest you refresh your understanding of the Paris bus network
via this link.

http://www.ratp.fr/informer/pdf/orie...s_paris&fm=gif

No bus stops at 20.30 M-F - the time is now 22.00 and only two routes
seem to stop. Many routes are daily and very few adopt the "barre"
system of part route operation on Sundays.

What's the 'barre' system? I had a google but couldn't find anything.

Strictly there should be an acute accent on the last "e". All barré
means is that a bus does not cover the full daytime route. Barré usually
applies evenings and Sundays and the route number displayed on the bus
has a diagonal line (or slash) across it to show that barré operates.

Ah, je comprends, merci. Essentially like our N mechanism for night buses,
except that (a) without the bit where sometimes N means an extended or
altered route, and (b) applying on earlier, and on sundays. And (c) using
an overprinted symbol rather than modifying the route number. But similar
in all other ways!

If you click on the link above you will see the table of route numbers
against days / times of day at the bottom. The diagonal line is shown
under certain routes.

Oh, i thought that was a bowling scoresheet!

tom

--
A plug on its back, straining to suck voltage from the sky

On Mar 12, 8:11*pm, Arthur Figgis wrote:
On 12/03/2011 00:48, john b wrote:

Many UK-based train companies have been successful (or at least,
profitable) at running public transport overseas - Stagecoach, First
and NEG all do, and Arriva did well enough that Deutsche Bahn paid two
billion euros for them and put Arriva management in charge of all its
international operations.

Though they is the issue that foreign state-owned[1] companies can buy
up "British" businesses, but we have no equivalent doing the opposite.
BRB Residuary isn't going to be bidding for any German operating
contracts, and while French companies can run our passenger trains,
British firms - state or private - can't run theirs.

Arriva ran lots of trains in Germany. As part of the DB deal, to avoid
breaking competition rules, they've been sold to a joint venture
between the Italian state rail operator and a French private equity
fund. It also ran trains in the Netherlands, Sweden, Denmark, Czech
Republic and Poland (and still does, although obviously now it's DB-
owned. FirstGroup still has a joint venture with the Danish state rail
operator to run trains in Sweden. National Express used to run trains
in Australia.

France is the exception, not the rule, here (and yes, the way in which
it dodges competition legislation is an outrage) - almost everywhere
else in Europe, there are plenty of trains operated by companies of
all nationalities, some state-owned, some joint ventures, and some
privately owned.

If the Arriva deal
goes wrong, will the Bundestag allow DB to go the way of GNER and NXEC?

I'm not clear what you mean here. The Bundestag would happily allow
(and would probably be breaking the law if it didn't allow) ATW, XC or
Chiltern to go the way of GNER and NXEC if they were unviable. But the
Arriva deal isn't going to affect the regulated services that DB
operates in Germany one way or another (well, it might have a marginal
impact on economies of scale, group expertise, etc, but nothing
major).

[1] Germans often claim DB is "privatised" because it is structured as a
company rather than as a ministry of railways. By that definition, many
British nationalised industries were privately owned, not nationalised.

True, it's clearly not privatised.

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

Paul Corfield wrote on 12 March 2011 11:21:30 ...
On Sat, 12 Mar 2011 10:56:52 +0000, Tom
wrote:

On Fri, 11 Mar 2011, Paul Corfield wrote:

On Fri, 11 Mar 2011 21:03:32 +0000, Tom
wrote:

What's the 'barre' system? I had a google but couldn't find anything.

Strictly there should be an acute accent on the last "e". All barré
means is that a bus does not cover the full daytime route. Barré usually
applies evenings and Sundays and the route number displayed on the bus
has a diagonal line (or slash) across it to show that barré operates.

Ah, je comprends, merci. Essentially like our N mechanism for night buses,
except that (a) without the bit where sometimes N means an extended or
altered route, and (b) applying on earlier, and on sundays. And (c) using
an overprinted symbol rather than modifying the route number. But similar
in all other ways!

Err sort of. I think the barré concept has been in existence for a very
long time so the French are very familiar with it. The only UK
equivalent I can think of is the "E" suffix used on buses in Birmingham
which indicates a short journey. I'm sure there must be others but I
can't think of any.

Paris now has quite a decent night bus network (Noctambus) and each
route is lettered rather than numbered. Not quite as frequent as some
of London's busiest routes but a welcome development given what existed
a few years ago (i.e. not much). Many of the night routes stretch out
into the suburbs and parallel the RER and Transilien rail network.

Noctambus was the old night bus network with 18 lettered routes. The
new night bus network, introduced in 2005, is called Noctilien, and has
42 numbered routes preceded by "N", e.g. N24.
--
Richard J.
(to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address)

On 12/03/2011 12:30, john b wrote:
On Mar 12, 8:11 pm, Arthur wrote:
On 12/03/2011 00:48, john b wrote:

Many UK-based train companies have been successful (or at least,
profitable) at running public transport overseas - Stagecoach, First
and NEG all do, and Arriva did well enough that Deutsche Bahn paid two
billion euros for them and put Arriva management in charge of all its
international operations.

Though they is the issue that foreign state-owned[1] companies can buy
up "British" businesses, but we have no equivalent doing the opposite.
BRB Residuary isn't going to be bidding for any German operating
contracts, and while French companies can run our passenger trains,
British firms - state or private - can't run theirs.

Arriva ran lots of trains in Germany. As part of the DB deal, to avoid
breaking competition rules, they've been sold to a joint venture
between the Italian state rail operator and a French private equity
fund. It also ran trains in the Netherlands, Sweden, Denmark, Czech
Republic and Poland (and still does, although obviously now it's DB-
owned. FirstGroup still has a joint venture with the Danish state rail
operator to run trains in Sweden. National Express used to run trains
in Australia.

France is the exception, not the rule, here (and yes, the way in which
it dodges competition legislation is an outrage) - almost everywhere
else in Europe, there are plenty of trains operated by companies of
all nationalities, some state-owned, some joint ventures, and some
privately owned.

If the Arriva deal
goes wrong, will the Bundestag allow DB to go the way of GNER and NXEC?

I'm not clear what you mean here.

Can DB, Trenitalia, NS, SNCF, DSB et al call on any resources of "last
resort" which wouldn't be available to a FirstGroup or Stagecoach?

Then there is the question of regulation, where Ruritanian Railways
Holdings owns RR Infrastructure and RR Train Pathing and RR Electricity
Supplies and RR Signalling, which control not only how RR Pax and RR
Cargo's trains run, but also their competitors' trains.

There was somewhere (Germany?) where the infrastructure manager offered
a "bulk discount" on access, pegged slightly below the national
railway's use, but hugely ahead of any new operators' needs. Though I
think the EU squished that cunning plan!

--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

On Sat, 12 Mar 2011, Paul Corfield wrote:

On Sat, 12 Mar 2011 10:56:52 +0000, Tom Anderson
wrote:

On Fri, 11 Mar 2011, Paul Corfield wrote:

On Fri, 11 Mar 2011 21:03:32 +0000, Tom Anderson
wrote:

What's the 'barre' system? I had a google but couldn't find anything.

If you click on the link above you will see the table of route numbers
against days / times of day at the bottom. The diagonal line is shown
under certain routes.

Oh, i thought that was a bowling scoresheet!

Oh I think you might just be teasing me with that response. You're
cleverer than that.

I should have realised it wasn't - there aren't nearly enough strikes.

tom

--
It sounds very much like a rock group consisting of a drum machine and
a few 56k modems. -- Jon