In reply to news post, which Five Cats ] wrote on
Sun, 21 Dec 2003 -
In message , Peter Masson
writes

"Jonathan Morton" wrote in message
...

That could of course have been the BR (ex-GCR) lines. South of and
including
Harrow-on-the-Hill they are on the south-western side of the formation,
giving Harrow three island platforms (from south to north Marylebone
down/up, Met down and Met up). I can't remember whether this arrangement
continues north of Harrow Junction.

Sorry, no images, but the dates would be right, co-inciding roughly with
the
intoduction of the A59 and A60 stock (IIRC, "A" for Amersham and the years
'59 and '60). Not sure if the reference to "second pair" of lines is
strictly correct. Certainly the Met south of Harrow is paired by direction
(very efficient use of space, with the slows in the middle, because you
can
use a single island platform where there are no fast platforms, as at
Northwick Park for instance, and one island for each direction where fast
trains stop, Harrow for instance). I think this continues north of Harrow,
but I can't remember exactly. So I would guess that quadrupling was
achieved
by a new track on each side, BICBW.

Stopping pattern for the fast Amershams was Finchley Road,
Harrow-on-the-Hill, Moor Park, then all stations - is it still? The
indicators at Finchley Road always used to have facilities to indicate a
train that didn't stop at Harrow-on-the-Hill, though I've never seen this
in
use - have any trains ever missed the Harrow stop in regular service?

Between Harrow and Moor Park the lines are paired by use, southern pair are
the fast lines, used by Amersham/ Chesham fasts, and by Chiltern Railways
Aylesbury trains, and the northern pair are used by stopping trains to
Watford (and occasionally Amersham). At least at Northwood, the slow lines
were new with new platforms, while the original tracks became the fast
lines, and the original down platform was abandoned. The original up
platform had a wall built along its original platform face, and a new face
built the other side as the new down (slow) platform - Photo in 'London and
its Railways' by r Davies and M D Grant.

In the 1960s there were peak hour trains which ran fast from Finchley Road
to Moor Park, as well as some Watfords which were fast Finchley Road to
North Harrow, and some Uxbridge which were fast from Finchley Road to
Rayners Lane, all of these running through Harrow without stopping. I think
that, at that time, peak trains to Harrow all called at Wembley Park,
Preston Road and Northwick Park.

There were some peak hour trains in the late 60's which might have
stopped once between Chorleywood & Marylebone. Certainly I had to make
sure I didn't get on them to go to school in Rickmansworth...

(of course these were BR not Met trains).

There were also a few through trains to Chesham in the peak hour, but
usually one had to change, I think at Chalfont & Latimer.


I think the last time the Me trains did not stop at Harrow was for some
peak hour services in the 1980s

Today, off peak Amersham trains call at Wembley Park and more often than
not use the slow lines, thus passing through Northwick Park and Preston
Road. They also often catch up an all stations train and thus
passengers end up being held at signals outside of the stations! I have
been on several trains which have arrived at Harrow on platform 6 at the
same time as an all stations train on platform 5, the all stations train
goes first and the "fast" ex Amersham train follows being held up by the
slower train in front.

There are now more Chiltern trains running from and to Marylebone which
miss out Met stations. None of the peak Chiltern trains call at
Rickmansworth (they have not stopped at Moor Park for years) and there
are a few which run non stop Marylebone to Amersham or Marylebone to
Great Missenden (and return).

Before the 4 track section north of Harrow was opened, there must have
been a real bottle neck as the line had to cope with Met stopping trains
and express services to Nottingham and beyond.

I have some details of the services through Amersham in the 1930s on my
web site - see sig below if you are interested

--
Matthew P Jones - www.amersham.org.uk
My view of the Metropolitan Line www.metroland.org.uk - actually I like it
Don't reply to it will not be read
You can reply to knap AT Nildram dot co dot uk

"Peter Masson" wrote in message
...

Between Harrow and Moor Park the lines are paired by use, southern pair
are
the fast lines, used by Amersham/ Chesham fasts, and by Chiltern Railways
Aylesbury trains, and the northern pair are used by stopping trains to
Watford (and occasionally Amersham). At least at Northwood, the slow lines
were new with new platforms, while the original tracks became the fast
lines, and the original down platform was abandoned. The original up
platform had a wall built along its original platform face, and a new face
built the other side as the new down (slow) platform - Photo in 'London
and
its Railways' by r Davies and M D Grant.

Thanks. That was the bit I wasn't sure about. How does the up (Met) fast
coming from North Harrow cross over the slows to get to the north side of
the formation in Harrow-on-the-Hill station? Is this done as part of the
flying junction arrangement for the Uxbridge line?

Regards

Jonathan

In article ], Five Cats wrote:

I remember the engine being changed at Rickmansworth when we went on
holiday to my grandparents in Kent.

After the end of steam at Rickmansworth the 75?-year old ashpit burned on for
another ten years, in the same manner as a colliery tip.

--

Jock Mackirdy
Bedford

Jonathan Morton wrote:
"Peter Masson" wrote in message
...

Between Harrow and Moor Park the lines are paired by use, southern
pair are the fast lines, used by Amersham/ Chesham fasts, and by
Chiltern Railways Aylesbury trains, and the northern pair are used
by stopping trains to Watford (and occasionally Amersham). At least
at Northwood, the slow lines were new with new platforms, while the
original tracks became the fast lines, and the original down
platform was abandoned. The original up platform had a wall built
along its original platform face, and a new face built the other
side as the new down (slow) platform - Photo in 'London and its
Railways' by r Davies and M D Grant.

Thanks. That was the bit I wasn't sure about. How does the up (Met)
fast coming from North Harrow cross over the slows to get to the
north side of the formation in Harrow-on-the-Hill station? Is this
done as part of the flying junction arrangement for the Uxbridge line?

See
http://www.davros.org/rail/culg/metr....html#features
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

In the 1950's I lived in North Harrow and think the Met had only two
tracks
running between Harrow on the Hill and Moor Park and beyond. A recent
photo
shows a second set of lines on the south west side of the station.

That could of course have been the BR (ex-GCR) lines. South of and
including
Harrow-on-the-Hill they are on the south-western side of the formation,
giving Harrow three island platforms (from south to north Marylebone
down/up, Met down and Met up). I can't remember whether this arrangement
continues north of Harrow Junction.

As far as I've been able to gather from various sources, Harrow-On-The-Hill
has always been the point where, heading south, the GC and Met parted ways.
In "Great Central Railway's London Extension" by Robert Robotham, two
different track plans are given for Harrow-On-The-Hill:

The first shows harrow as having two side platforms and one island platform,
with four tracks. To the south-east, the two northern tracks were the Met
line to Baker Street, and the two southern ones were the GC to Marylebone.
However, the trackwork allowed any Met train from the south to access all
but the most northern platform, and vice versa that any Met train from the
north could access all but the southermost platform. The GC, however, could
only use the two most southern platforms when arriving from Marylebone, and
so consequently would have to use them when approaching from the north too.
The Met lines as far as Harrow-on-the-Hill were quadrupled in 1932

Heading north-west from the station, the four track converged to 2, shortly
before diverging again into 4 - the northern tracks heading to
Rickmansworth, the other two being the Met branch to Rayners Lane /
Uxbridge. This was obviously a huge bottleneck, and in 1936 a dive-under was
put in to remove conflicts.

In the early 1960s, however, the Met lines were quadrupled further north
from Harrow-on-the-Hill, and separated from the GC lines (the new track-plan
showing only one physical connection between the two). From the south, the
arrangement is simple enough - two up lines to Baker street, two down lines
from Baker street, then Marylebone up/down.

The Met lines had scissors at the southern end of the station to allow
trains from either Rick'wth or Uxbridge to access either of the fast or slow
lines, however switching from the down direction to the up direction was
possible only by a) a head-shunt fitted in the centre of the four tracks,
north of the station, or a trailing cross-over between the middle two
tracks, which were for Uxbridge (see below).

Heading north-west from Harrow, the two GC lines remain at the south side,
but on the met, the outer-most two lines go to Rick'wth, whilst the inner
two lines served Uxbridge. The dive-under then took the two GC tracks and
the down Rick'wth line of the Met over the two Uxbridge tracks, giving (from
north-east) Met Rickw'th up/down, GC up/down, Met Uxbridge up/down.

Presumably, the four tracks heading towards Rickmansworth pair off to two
tracks after Moor Park (which was completely rebuilt when the GC/Met was
quadded) / Croxleyhall Junction (or what I call "the Watford triangle", to
rhyme with "Bermuda" ;-P).

Not sure if the reference to "second pair" of lines is
strictly correct. Certainly the Met south of Harrow is paired by direction
(very efficient use of space, with the slows in the middle, because you can
use a single island platform where there are no fast platforms, as at
Northwick Park for instance, and one island for each direction where fast
trains stop, Harrow for instance).

Most definitely a good arrangement. Had full-scale quadrupling of the GCR
occured, this is the model they intended to use. Fast on the outside, slow
on the inside, local stations therefore needing just a single island
platform. You can't get simpler than that, can you?

This pairing by direction does not appear to continue north of Harrow,
judging by the track-plans I have. It merely separated the GC and Met lines.
However, more recent works may have changed this arrangment.

Mayn alopogies for the inevitable millions of spelling / grammar mistakes
which may have rendered this posting unintelligible, but my brain is running
on empty at the moment, demanding sleep urgently!

Ronnie
--
http://www.blugman.freeserve.co.uk

Due to recent viruspams, any email containing the word "Microsoft" will not
be received.

In article ,
(Jock Mackirdy) wrote:

In article ], Five Cats wrote:

I remember the engine being changed at Rickmansworth when we went on
holiday to my grandparents in Kent.

After the end of steam at Rickmansworth the 75?-year old ashpit burned
on for another ten years, in the same manner as a colliery tip.

Er, but steam continued to run on the Met for another 10 years, until
1971! Just not on passenger services.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

"Colin Rosenstiel" wrote in message
...
In article ,
(Jock Mackirdy) wrote:

In article ], Five Cats wrote:

I remember the engine being changed at Rickmansworth when we went on
holiday to my grandparents in Kent.

After the end of steam at Rickmansworth the 75?-year old ashpit burned
on for another ten years, in the same manner as a colliery tip.

Er, but steam continued to run on the Met for another 10 years, until
1971! Just not on passenger services.


And not just on the Met, steam worked over the District as well.

"Jonathan Morton" wrote in message
...
"Dave Rowsell" wrote in message
...
In the 1950's I lived in North Harrow and think the Met had only two
tracks
running between Harrow on the Hill and Moor Park and beyond. A recent
photo
shows a second set of lines on the south west side of the station.

That could of course have been the BR (ex-GCR) lines. South of and
including
Harrow-on-the-Hill they are on the south-western side of the formation,
giving Harrow three island platforms (from south to north Marylebone
down/up, Met down and Met up). I can't remember whether this arrangement
continues north of Harrow Junction.

Clive's UndergrounD Guides web pages say "Traffic on the Metropolitan
was
heavy enough that it was quadrupled from Finchley Road to Kilburn in
1913,
Wembley Park in 1915, Harrow in 1932, Northwood Hills in 1961, and
Croxleyhall Junction (north of Moor Park) in 1962." I am right in
understanding this to mean that the second pair of lines were built in
1961.

Does any one have information on this second set and/or any images of
their
construction.

Sorry, no images, but the dates would be right, co-inciding roughly with
the
intoduction of the A59 and A60 stock (IIRC, "A" for Amersham and the years
'59 and '60). Not sure if the reference to "second pair" of lines is
strictly correct.


Certainly the Met south of Harrow is paired by direction
(very efficient use of space, with the slows in the middle,
because you can use a single island platform where
there are no fast platforms, as at Northwick Park for instance,
and one island for each direction where fast
trains stop, Harrow for instance).

This is only efficient on space if you are happy to have the fast lines
wiggling like crazy as they go past minor stations. If you want decent
alignments for the fast lines, the lengthy sliver of land required to fit a
minor station platform in the middle of a fast-slow-slow-fast arrangement
might use more land than two platforms on the outside of a
slow-fast-fast-slow arrangement.

I think this continues north of Harrow,
but I can't remember exactly.
So I would guess that quadrupling was achieved
by a new track on each side, BICBW.

This would require twice as many properties to be purchased / demolished,
unless the land for 4 tracks had been set aside when the line was first
built.

--
John Rowland - Spamtrapped
Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html
A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood.
That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line -
It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes

In message , Jock Mackirdy
writes
In article ], Five Cats wrote:

I remember the engine being changed at Rickmansworth when we went on
holiday to my grandparents in Kent.

After the end of steam at Rickmansworth the 75?-year old ashpit burned on for
another ten years, in the same manner as a colliery tip.

Now that I don't remember. Where was it, please?


--
Five Cats
Email to: cats_spam at uk2 dot net

"Jonathan Morton" wrote in message
...
"Dave Rowsell" wrote in message
...
In the 1950's I lived in North Harrow and think the Met had only two
tracks
running between Harrow on the Hill and Moor Park and beyond. A recent
photo
shows a second set of lines on the south west side of the station.

That could of course have been the BR (ex-GCR) lines. South of and
including
Harrow-on-the-Hill they are on the south-western side of the formation,
giving Harrow three island platforms (from south to north Marylebone
down/up, Met down and Met up). I can't remember whether this arrangement
continues north of Harrow Junction.

Clive's UndergrounD Guides web pages say "Traffic on the Metropolitan
was
heavy enough that it was quadrupled from Finchley Road to Kilburn in
1913,
Wembley Park in 1915, Harrow in 1932, Northwood Hills in 1961, and
Croxleyhall Junction (north of Moor Park) in 1962." I am right in
understanding this to mean that the second pair of lines were built in
1961.

Does any one have information on this second set and/or any images of
their
construction.

Sorry, no images, but the dates would be right, co-inciding roughly with
the
intoduction of the A59 and A60 stock (IIRC, "A" for Amersham and the years
'59 and '60). Not sure if the reference to "second pair" of lines is
strictly correct. Certainly the Met south of Harrow is paired by direction
(very efficient use of space, with the slows in the middle, because you
can
use a single island platform where there are no fast platforms, as at
Northwick Park for instance, and one island for each direction where fast
trains stop, Harrow for instance). I think this continues north of Harrow,
but I can't remember exactly. So I would guess that quadrupling was
achieved
by a new track on each side, BICBW.

P. E. Garbutt's "How the Underground Works" (London Transport, 1968
revision) has track plans of the completed Harrow - Moor Park 4-tracking
(fig 18), and of the staging of the works 1959-1962 (fig 19). In essence,
new double track was built to the west of the line from N. Harrow to
Northwood Hills (inc), with the existing platforms remaining on the new slow
lines and no platforms on the fast; at Northwood the new tracks are to the
east, with a new southbound platform & the site of the old southbound
platform becoming the northbound one, the old northbound being demolished;
at Moor Park the new lines were back on the western side, with the site of
the old southbound platform becoming an island serving the slow lines. and a
new island platform for the fast lines.

Hope this makes sense!

Mike