On Mar 12, 8:52*pm, solar penguin wrote:
Given how many faulty Oyster readers there are out there, that's the
most likely explanation. *There's one reader at Gipsy Hill that reads
the card and opens the barrier to let you out, no problems, but
sometimes doesn't always manage to write to tell the card that the
journey's been completed! *Three times it given me an Unresolved
Journey because of that! *I've tried telling the station man about it,
but he doesn't believe and/or understand it!

FWIW, nor do I. If the light's gone green and the barrier's opened, I
don't think it's *possible* for the system to leave your journey
unresolved.

_That's_ why Oyster is a real con. *It promises you "Sacrifice your
privacy and you'll be rewarded with cheap offpeak fares that you used
to get on paper anyway," but then it doesn't always keep its side of
the bargain and give us those cheap fares! *You don't need additional
conspiracy theories about SouthEastern and OEPs, when the basic
concept of Oyster is already such a nightmare!

Except that the basic concept of Oyster as on buses, LU, LO, Tramlink
and DLR is completely unproblematic - the only issue is the way in
which the TOCs have implemented it (slowly, grudgingly, on a
ridiculous fare-scale and with ridiculous extra rules like OEPs).

The sooner paper offpeak cheap day returns are restored within the
London area, the better!

They'll cost four shillings and six each, I believe. And you'll get to
ride on slamdoor mk1 stock powered by steam.

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

On Mar 12, 10:09*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:
The only opportunity to influence events is now in terms of you creating
a huge campaign that one of the Mayoral candidates decides is worth
taking hold of and using in their campaign. I'm sure Ken and Lembit will
be delighted to hear from you! *Might be a bit hard for Boris to
backtrack given all the push he gave (and credit he has taken) for
getting Oyster on to the NR network in London.

Might be a *teensy* bit tough to get Ken on board as well, I reckon.

So Lembit it is. Solar Penguin and Lembit's Campaign To Make Travel In
London Much More **** For No Reason has got to be a surefire electoral
dream ticket...

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

On Mar 12, 10:08*am, solar penguin wrote:

Paul Scott wrote:

"solar penguin" wrote:

Are you sure about that? *I've used Oyster PAYG between Sydenham Hill
and Victoria several times, and never had any problems at all.

And that's using PAYG in combination with a travelcard - if so for which
zones?

No Travelcard. *But that doesn't matter because the original poster
didn't mention anything at all about Travelcards.

In the bit you deliberately snipped he said, "South Eastern seem to be
the main culprits. I read something last night that suggested they had
programmed their gates to reject Oyster cards
when OEPs were not set."

As stated, that seems to apply to normal Oysters as well as ones with
Travelcards on them.

OEPs only have any meaning in relation to a Travelcard loaded on an
Oyster card, end of. (You can set an OEP on an Oyster when using it
purely in 'PAYG mode', but it doesn't mean anything.)

In article ,
john b wrote:
On Mar 12, 8:29*pm, solar penguin wrote:
either (I'm assuming you don't carry credit cards - JOOI, do you also
refuse to carry fiat money and only use gold sovereigns...?)

A gold sovereign (1837 or later) is legal tender to the value of one
pound. So not enough to pay for any tube journey.

-roy

On Mar 12, 12:45*pm, john b wrote:
On Mar 12, 8:52*pm, solar penguin wrote:

Given how many faulty Oyster readers there are out there, that's the
most likely explanation. *There's one reader at Gipsy Hill that reads
the card and opens the barrier to let you out, no problems, but
sometimes doesn't always manage to write to tell the card that the
journey's been completed! *Three times it given me an Unresolved
Journey because of that! *I've tried telling the station man about it,
but he doesn't believe and/or understand it!

FWIW, nor do I. If the light's gone green and the barrier's opened, I
don't think it's *possible* for the system to leave your journey
unresolved.


--
John Band
john at johnband dot orgwww.johnband.org

John - it is perfectly possible. The gate / validator, station
computer and hence the central system record the exit (or entry -
equally possible) but the exit (or entry) is not written to the card.
It happens from time to time.

On Mar 13, 7:06*am, Jack wrote:
On Mar 12, 12:45*pm, john b wrote:









On Mar 12, 8:52*pm, solar penguin wrote:

Given how many faulty Oyster readers there are out there, that's the
most likely explanation. *There's one reader at Gipsy Hill that reads
the card and opens the barrier to let you out, no problems, but
sometimes doesn't always manage to write to tell the card that the
journey's been completed! *Three times it given me an Unresolved
Journey because of that! *I've tried telling the station man about it,
but he doesn't believe and/or understand it!

FWIW, nor do I. If the light's gone green and the barrier's opened, I
don't think it's *possible* for the system to leave your journey
unresolved.

John - *it is perfectly possible. *The gate / validator, *station
computer and hence the central system record the exit (or entry -
equally possible) but the exit (or entry) is not written to the card.
It happens from time to time.

And you're saying the process is designed so that, even though there's
a record of your journey being completed in the central system, the
fact that it hasn't been written to the card means that when the
system does its reckoning, the central record gets ignored and you get
penalised for an unresolved journey?

If so, that's a sufficiently stupid outcome that I hadn't even
considered it might be the case. Anyone care to confirm?

JB

On Mar 13, 2:07*am, john b wrote:
On Mar 13, 7:06*am, Jack wrote:





On Mar 12, 12:45*pm, john b wrote:

On Mar 12, 8:52*pm, solar penguin wrote:

Given how many faulty Oyster readers there are out there, that's the
most likely explanation. *There's one reader at Gipsy Hill that reads
the card and opens the barrier to let you out, no problems, but
sometimes doesn't always manage to write to tell the card that the
journey's been completed! *Three times it given me an Unresolved
Journey because of that! *I've tried telling the station man about it,
but he doesn't believe and/or understand it!

FWIW, nor do I. If the light's gone green and the barrier's opened, I
don't think it's *possible* for the system to leave your journey
unresolved.

John - *it is perfectly possible. *The gate / validator, *station
computer and hence the central system record the exit (or entry -
equally possible) but the exit (or entry) is not written to the card.
It happens from time to time.

And you're saying the process is designed so that, even though there's
a record of your journey being completed in the central system, the
fact that it hasn't been written to the card means that when the
system does its reckoning, the central record gets ignored and you get
penalised for an unresolved journey?

If so, that's a sufficiently stupid outcome that I hadn't even
considered it might be the case. Anyone care to confirm?

JB

John - the system adjusts data on the card chip during transactions.
The balance and / or season tickets are held on the card chip, not in
the central system. As you are no doubt aware, there are
retrospective refund processes available, both user-iniated by phone,
email etc and also "automated" refunds for "operational issues".
The scenario described may be picked up by the automated process - I
am not sure. It is not "designed" to fail to write an entry or exit
to the chip. There will always be a minority of transactions that are
not completely successful.
The point is that maximum fares are deducted during the transaction
with the gate or validator and not after the fact.

In message of Sat, 12 Mar
2011 07:47:30 in uk.transport.london, Paul Corfield
writes
On Fri, 11 Mar 2011 16:41:45 -0800 (PST), john b
wrote:

On Mar 12, 8:55Â*am, Paul Corfield wrote:
They were an overly complex "solution" to a perceived risk to revenue.
The fact that the people who wanted the system put in place did
*nothing* to advertise it to their passengers says it all. Â*It was also
clear from early GLA member questions that there was little or no
training of TOC staff about the concept and why it was required.

You then move on to the next nonsense which is that the people who
wanted it, did nothing about it then penalty fared their own passengers
for not complying with a system requirement they probably knew nothing
about. You couldn't make it up.

Were people *actually* PFed for not having OEPs, or is that just
extrapolated from theoretical possibility?

South Eastern seem to be the main culprits. I read something last night
that suggested they had programmed their gates to reject Oyster cards
when OEPs were not set. Naturally a ticket inspector was standing close
by to issue a PF. To my mind that it is beyond petty - I do not
condone fare evasion *at all* but operators have to do their bit to
ensure the poor passenger has a chance of understanding the rules and
then complying with them without being put through a "trial by fire and
water" (in ticketing terms).


Paul, I think your "somewhere" was probably this posting in this thread:
In message
s.com of Fri, 11 Mar 2011 20:36:09 in uk.transport.london, "John @
home" writes
On Mar 12, 12:41Â*am, john b wrote:
Were people *actually* PFed for not having OEPs,
It has been reported that Southeastern have been issuing Penalty Fares
for not having an OEP set. See, for example, the response by "Louise"
on this page:
http://www.oyster-rail.org.uk/2011/0...hange-to-oeps/

It starts with conjecture. There is real evidence from "Louise".

"I have only recently moved to London ... and travelled from Lewisham to
charing Cross on a Z2-3 Travelcard. When I got to Charing Cross I
couldnt get through the gate. I didn’t understand what was going on as I
had almost £10 on my card. Three gate guards pointed me towards the
information desk and a southeastern guy fined me the £20 and asked if I
wanted to appeal. Apparently ‘I have never heard of an OEP’ wasn’t good
enough defence. Then he walked me to a machine and told me how to put
the OEP on."
I suspect this would not stand against appeal, but most people would not
bother with the hassle.

I don't know if the following article is correct http://www.thisislondo
n.co.uk/standard/article-23731140-fare-dodgers.do. It says the appeals
services are not independent. It advises refusing to pay any dubious
demands and letting "them" sue. Again, who needs the hassle.

[snip]
--
Walter Briscoe

In article ,
(Paul Corfield) wrote:

They were an overly complex "solution" to a perceived risk to revenue.
The fact that the people who wanted the system put in place did
*nothing* to advertise it to their passengers says it all. It was also
clear from early GLA member questions that there was little or no
training of TOC staff about the concept and why it was required.

Maybe true at the outset but the posters at Putney Station seemed clear
enough last time I saw them there, last week.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In article ,
(Paul Corfield) wrote:

On Sat, 12 Mar 2011 01:29:20 -0800 (PST), solar penguin
wrote:

I'll save my cheering until NR finally bring back cheap offpeak paper
returns for the London area,

I don't think they will ever come back as all the pressure is for
further zonal pricing alignment using Oyster and not in the reverse
direction. Why would TfL wish to finance this and the TOCs are unlikely
to want to go back to a system which loses them revenue and costs more
to retail?

I understand completely why people are not happy about the change btw.

I'm happy. My Vauxhall-Putney singles are still half what they were in
2009!

The only opportunity to influence events is now in terms of you creating
a huge campaign that one of the Mayoral candidates decides is worth
taking hold of and using in their campaign. I'm sure Ken and Lembit will
be delighted to hear from you! Might be a bit hard for Boris to
backtrack given all the push he gave (and credit he has taken) for
getting Oyster on to the NR network in London.

I don't think Lembit will care either way. He's not a candidate.

--
Colin Rosenstiel