On Mar 23, 10:03*pm, (Roy Badami) wrote:
It's confusing, but there are two entirely different notions of
peak/off-peak used on the London network.

Each individual journey on Oyster PAYG is charged as peak
6.30am-9.30am and 4pm-7pm and off-peak at other times. *The notion of
off-peak fares was new with Oyster (although the actual times have
been revised since launch) and off-peak fares were one of the carrots
used to drive Oyster adoption. The previous paper single tickets
hadn't depended on time of day (and still don't).

There did used to be cheap day returns on the Underground, but it was
quite some time ago - e.g. see this poster from 1983:
http://preview.tinyurl.com/Underground-CDR-poster-1983

See other posters in the LTM collection by searching the LTM
collection for "cheap day return", or follow this link:
http://preview.tinyurl.com/LTM-collection-CheapDayReturn

Re peak and off-peak Oyster PAYG fares - for a long time TfL didn't
use that terminology w.r.t PAYG fares at all, in passenger facing
blurb they just referred to the two fare levels by the time periods
during which they applied, in internal communications they referred to
it as standard (peak) and 'discount' (off-peak) PAYG fares. I think
this changed in January '09 (when NR in London eventually
'Oysterised').


The daily fare caps on Oyster are charged as peak before 9.30am and
off-peak after 9.30am. *This has always been the rule for Travelcards,
from which it was inherited - Oyster fair capping is essentially the
replacement for the One Day Travelcard - but the same rule continutes
to apply to One Day Travelcards, too, insofar as they still exist.

They very much do still exist! You can't buy them from the shop round
the corner any more though... (but there are a *great* many more shops
that are Oyster Ticket Stops these days - I'd suggest it's almost a
default expectation that corner/convenience shops and newsagents 'do'
Oyster now).


Railcard holders now also get a discount on the fare caps, by virtue
of the fact that they traditionally got a discount on One Day
Travelcards.

It does all make some kind of sense if you view it in the proper
historical context, but it's certainly not straightforward.

No - though I do wonder how else it should all be described, i.e. some
way of avoiding using the terms peak and off-peak for two these
different meanings? High-rate and low-rate? Happy and sad? Bargain and
got-you-by-the-balls? Blondie and Newt? Erm...

On Mar 23, 10:33*pm, David Jackman pleasereplytogroup wrote:

Also bear in mind that the normal rules for the railcard don't apply when
using an Oyster card loaded with a railcard. *So a Gold Card (which isn't
normally valid until 10:00 MF) will give Oyster discounts from 09:30 and
you get discount on Tube only single journeys (which you can't with a paper
ticket).

I havn't yet tried a journey before 06:30 but the TfL fare finder

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/tickets/fa...inder/current/

suggests - bizarrely - that the off-peak fare with railcard discount will
be available.

The lack of discount between 4pm-7pm has caught me out a few times ...


I think the Railcard discount on Oyster is pretty binary - i.e. there
are discounts on all off-peak single PAYG fares, and there are no
discounts on peak single PAYG fares.

See the blurb on this page:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/14414.aspx#tkt-tab-panel-9

---quote---
If you have:[list of qualifying Railcards]

You can get:
* 34 per cent off off-peak Oyster single fares on all National Rail
services in London
* 34 per cent off off-peak Daily price cap
* Discounted Off-Peak Day Travelcards (also for Network Railcard and
Family and Friends Railcard holders)
[...]
Note: National Railcard discounts only apply to off-peak Oyster single
fares and off-peak Oyster daily price caps. Between 16:00 and 19:00
Monday to Friday (excluding Bank Holidays) it may be cheaper to buy a
paper ticket.
---/quote---


So no mention of any other time periods, it all just appears to align
with the peak/off-peak periods that apply to single PAYG fares (so I
reckon crack of dawn pre-0630 Railcard discounts are indeed on offer).

You make a very good point, especially w.r.t. the Gold Card discount
kicking in that half an hour earlier at 0930 rather than at 1000.
Also, if one was to have say a zones 1&2 annual Travelcard aka Gold
Card, and wanted to travel to say Surbiton in zone 6 during the
evening peak period (1600-1900), then by my reckoning it'd actually be
a bit cheaper to get a (paper) Railcard-reduced extension ticket from
Boundary Zone 2 to Surbiton rather than using Oyster PAYG to
automagically pay for the excess fare.

My head hurts!

On Mar 23, 11:43*pm, Mizter T wrote:

On Mar 23, 10:33*pm, David Jackman pleasereplytogroup wrote:

Also bear in mind that the normal rules for the railcard don't apply when
using an Oyster card loaded with a railcard. *So a Gold Card (which isn't
normally valid until 10:00 MF) will give Oyster discounts from 09:30 and
you get discount on Tube only single journeys (which you can't with a paper
ticket).

I havn't yet tried a journey before 06:30 but the TfL fare finder

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/tickets/fa...inder/current/

suggests - bizarrely - that the off-peak fare with railcard discount will
be available.

The lack of discount between 4pm-7pm has caught me out a few times ...

I think the Railcard discount on Oyster is pretty binary - i.e. there
are discounts on all off-peak single PAYG fares, and there are no
discounts on peak single PAYG fares.
[snip]

One last thing I've just thought of - since Jan 2011, we've had the
new concept of off-peak PAYG fares being available for Tube journeys
into zone 1 during the 1600-1900 evening peak (actually it applies to
all routes which use the TfL-rate, so that includes a few NR routes as
well).

I've just checked the TfL fare finder which states that you would
indeed get a Railcard-reduced off-peak fare for such evening peak
journeys *into* zone 1. Therefore, for people heading from say
Upminster (z6) to Whitechapel (z2) in the evening peak, it would
actually (somewhat counter-intuitively) work out *cheaper* for them to
stay on the District line train for one stop more and get off at
Aldgate East in zone 1.

(As an aside, I like the whole cheaper evening peak fares into zone 1
idea - indeed it'd be great if National Rail offered the same - but I
dislike the fact that the withdrawal of the zones 2-6 Day Travelcard &
daily cap was justified on the basis of funding the cheap early
evening fares thing.)

In message , at 17:03:41
on Wed, 23 Mar 2011, Roy Badami remarked:

Each individual journey on Oyster PAYG is charged as peak
6.30am-9.30am and 4pm-7pm and off-peak at other times.

This caught me out last year when I made a trip at about 6.45pm
*against* the tidal flow. Most unfair

The daily fare caps on Oyster are charged as peak before 9.30am and
off-peak after 9.30am.

Is the rule something like:

Make all your journeys before 9.30 and the Peak cap applies.
Make at least one journey after 9.30am and the off-peak cap applies to
the whole day's fares?

Or do you get charged (up to) the sum of the Peak and off-peak caps?
--
Roland Perry

"Roland Perry" wrote:

In message , at 17:03:41 on
Wed, 23 Mar 2011, Roy Badami remarked:

Each individual journey on Oyster PAYG is charged as peak
6.30am-9.30am and 4pm-7pm and off-peak at other times.

This caught me out last year when I made a trip at about 6.45pm *against*
the tidal flow. Most unfair

Since Jan 2011, evening peak Tube journeys *into* zone 1 are now charged at
the off-peak rate (this applies to everything on the TfL fare scale - so
includes the DLR, LO and a few NR routes) - alas this doesn't apply to
National Rail services (on the NR fare scale) though.

The Watford - Euston DC line has had contra-tidal flow pricing for a while
now, so morning peak journeys in the Watford direction are charged the
off-peak rate, ditto for evening peak journeys in the Euston direction -
this applies along the whole line, and also applies to parrallel LM services
between Euston / Harrow & Wealdstone / Watford Junction.

In both cases these off-peak PAYG fares can benefit from the Railcard
discount.


The daily fare caps on Oyster are charged as peak before 9.30am and
off-peak after 9.30am.

Is the rule something like:

Make all your journeys before 9.30 and the Peak cap applies.
Make at least one journey after 9.30am and the off-peak cap applies to
the whole day's fares?

Or do you get charged (up to) the sum of the Peak and off-peak caps?


Erm, I'm a bit confused by what you're trying to get at.

Journeys started before 0930 (actually 0430-0930) only contribute towards a
peak cap, journeys started after 0930 (until 0430 next day) contribute
towards an off-peak cap, or a peak cap if appropriate (the latter only
happens if a journey or journeys have been made during the peak).

The cap that is applied is the most appropriate one - so if you make one
peak journey, then several off-peak journeys, you may well be charged for
the peak journey separately with all the off-peak journeys contributing
towards an off-peak cap, if that worked out cheaper than just applying the
peak cap. In other words, simply because you make a journey during the peak
does not by default mean that you're only eligible for the peak cap that
day.

The cap that is applied can and does change during the day as appropriate,
as one travels around. Indeed, two caps can be applied at the same time -
e.g. a daily bus cap at GBP4.00, and an off-peak zones 1-6 cap at GBP8.00 -
this would only happen if someone had made four bus journeys before 0930
though!

(The withdrawal of the zones 2-6 and indeed zones 2-9 caps makes it somewhat
harder to come up with zany capping scenarios.)

In message , at 11:34:18 on Thu, 24 Mar
2011, Mizter T remarked:
Is the rule something like:

Make all your journeys before 9.30 and the Peak cap applies.
Make at least one journey after 9.30am and the off-peak cap applies to
the whole day's fares?

Or do you get charged (up to) the sum of the Peak and off-peak caps?


Erm, I'm a bit confused by what you're trying to get at.

Journeys started before 0930 (actually 0430-0930) only contribute
towards a peak cap, journeys started after 0930 (until 0430 next day)
contribute towards an off-peak cap, or a peak cap if appropriate (the
latter only happens if a journey or journeys have been made during the
peak).

The cap that is applied is the most appropriate one - so if you make
one peak journey, then several off-peak journeys, you may well be
charged for the peak journey separately with all the off-peak journeys
contributing towards an off-peak cap, if that worked out cheaper than
just applying the peak cap. In other words, simply because you make a
journey during the peak does not by default mean that you're only
eligible for the peak cap that day.

That sounds to me as if it's the sum of (capped peak) and (capped
offpeak).
--
Roland Perry

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...

That sounds to me as if it's the sum of (capped peak) and (capped
offpeak).

The 'capped peak' is the maximum you can ever pay, you can't be charged both
caps added together - but you can end up with a daily total that is
somewhere between the two caps.

Paul S

In message , at 13:27:22 on
Thu, 24 Mar 2011, Paul Scott remarked:
That sounds to me as if it's the sum of (capped peak) and (capped
offpeak).

The 'capped peak' is the maximum you can ever pay, you can't be charged
both caps added together - but you can end up with a daily total that
is somewhere between the two caps.

So trying to express this in pseudo maths, it's capped to:

Min (Peak-cap, Peak_trips + off_peak cap)
--
Roland Perry

"Paul Scott" wrote:

"Roland Perry" wrote:

That sounds to me as if it's the sum of (capped peak) and (capped
offpeak).

The 'capped peak' is the maximum you can ever pay, you can't be charged
both caps added together - but you can end up with a daily total that is
somewhere between the two caps.


Indeed. Perhaps a quick example would help illustrate matters - I was
thinking of making up some sort of narrative that'd explain these journeys -
e.g. Mr X has to deliver a door knob, a stuffed Budgerigar and a roll of
microfiche to three locations at specified times - but on second thoughts
decided perhaps not...

Ok, so first off a punter makes two zones 1&2 Tube journeys during the
morning rush hour, during the period 0630-0930 - that's GBP2.50 each, so
GBP5.00 total. Because these journeys were made during the Peak capping
window of 0430-0930, they can only ever contribute towards a Peak cap - but
we haven't hit a cap yet.

Then that person makes goes on to make two zone 1&2 Tube journeys during the
daytime (0930-1600) - these are charged at GBP1.90 each, so GBP3.80. These
can contribute to *either* a Peak or an Off-peak cap. The hypothetical
running total is now GBP8.80, which is more than the Peak zones 1&2 cap of
GBP8.00 - therefore that cap kicks in (specifically this actually happens
when the punter finishes the fourth journey, for which only GBP1.10 will be
debited - i.e. the amount needed to take them to the aforementioned GBP8.00
cap).

Then that person goes on to make two zones 1-6 Tube journeys during the late
evening (after 1900) - these are GBP2.70 each, so GBP5.40 total. Again,
these can contribute towards either a Peak of an Off-peak cap - now what
happens here is the vaguely clever bit...

The zones 1-6 Peak cap is GBP15.00 - that's too high for our theoretical
overall running total of GBP14.20. Instead what happens is that all the
journeys that have taken place during the Off-peak capping window are
instead reallocated towards the Off-peak zones 1-6 cap, which is GBP8.00,
and the two journeys that occurred before 0930 are charged separately - they
come to a total of GBP5.00, so the total cost of all the journeys that day
is GBP13.00. In other words as the situation evolves, journeys can shift
around and contribute towards different caps.

No, I haven't done this exact scenario - yes, I'm daft enough that I might
test it out sometime. (I did however miss the boat with regards to potential
experimentation when the zones 2-6 caps were still around.)


One has to beware of the spectacular potential for terminological confusion
here w.r.t. the two separate meanings of peak and off-peak:
* in a capping context, peak is 0430-0930 weekdays and off-peak is all other
times
* in terms of PAYG single fares, peak is 0630-0930 and 1600-1900 but with
the exceptions described elsewhere on this thread (i.e. evening Tube
journeys into zone 1 are now charged at the off-peak rate, and there is
directional pricing on the Watford-Euston route too)

Therefore it's possible to pay an off-peak PAYG fare for journeys starting
between 0430-0630 but that can only ever contribute towards a peak cap -
likewise, peak PAYG fares for journeys starting between 1600-1900 can
contribute to an off-peak cap (though they can also contribute towards a
peak cap if that's appropriate). It'd probably be better if PAYG fares were
described as high-rate and low-rate or something like that,rather than peak
and off-peak.

In message , Paul Scott
wrote:
The 'capped peak' is the maximum you can ever pay, you can't be charged
both caps added together - but you can end up with a daily total that
is somewhere between the two caps.

Put another way, you will always pay the lowest of these three choices:
(1) the peak cap;
(2) the off-peak cap plus the total cost of the individual peak-time
journeys;
(3) the total cost of the individual journeys.

If you don't travel in the peak, then (2) becomes the off-peak cap.

--
Clive D.W. Feather | Home:
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