Last week I made the monumental mistake of taking photographs of
Cockfosters Station, on my way home from work.

I always take pictures of tube stations - the Piccadilly Line ones are
just beautiful. Especially Southgate, but I digress.

One of the station staff approached me and asked what I was doing and
I told him. (I have spoken to him before about taking pictures and it
was never a problem...)

First things first - I should have asked permission as a courtesy. I
totally accept that. In my defence it was spare of the moment with the
light and shadows and I was in the last carriage, so didn't think
about walking the length of the platform and back again. But yes, I
should have asked permission. I thought that was the end of it. I
apologised and explained that I thought it was fine because I recall
seeing a sign (somewhere) asking people not to take flash photography,
so I kind of thought that was a presumed permission.

He then said that I was causing alarm amongst passengers and drivers
- which was totally not the case. There were no passengers or drivers
about at that time. And I actually don't want people in photographs of
buildings.
One of the cleaners exclaimed something in French to me but I didn't
understand. But accept that she could have been alarmed. But then she
alarmed me by not speaking in English but that's beside the point.

He then got his supervisor who asked the same question, and said he
understood that I wanted to take pictures of the architecture but I
wasn't too photograph anything in the roof, due to "heightened
security". Yet Cockfosters is without staff for several hours in the
morning and evening - if security was so heightened should this not be
addressed? Or was that a fib?

SO I then decided to check the TfL website, where I discovered some
fairly stringent rules about taking pictures, he
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/medi...aspx#section-2

TfL's website offers a "student/non professional users" £40 license
fee, that takes about three weeks to be processed and "this permit is
only a permit to film or photograph. It does not allow you to publish
or broadcast your photographs or films anywhere externally, including
on the internet..."

Then I found this:
https://custserv.tfl.gov.uk/icss_csi...ewTabtext=Tube

Taking photographs on the Tube
If you are just passing through, you shouldn't have a problem taking
personal snaps, souvenir shots etc. although you must NOT use flash or
lights on any of our platforms. However, if you want to spend more
than 10-15 minutes at any one station videoing or taking photos, or if
they are for professional use, you MUST have a permit.

So, I was correct in the presumed permission - the pictures were not
for professional use, and I was at the station for about 5 minutes.

I suppose my point is that if you want to take pictures, take a print
out of that webpage from TfL with you! And that if people mention
security as a reason for anything, I instantly lose interest in what
they are saying. It seems such an easy one-excuse-fits-all kind of
answer.

Railist wrote:
Last week I made the monumental mistake of taking photographs of
Cockfosters Station, on my way home from work.

I always take pictures of tube stations - the Piccadilly Line ones are
just beautiful. Especially Southgate, but I digress.

One of the station staff approached me and asked what I was doing and
I told him. (I have spoken to him before about taking pictures and it
was never a problem...)

First things first - I should have asked permission as a courtesy. I
totally accept that. In my defence it was spare of the moment with the
light and shadows and I was in the last carriage, so didn't think
about walking the length of the platform and back again. But yes, I
should have asked permission. I thought that was the end of it. I
apologised and explained that I thought it was fine because I recall
seeing a sign (somewhere) asking people not to take flash photography,
so I kind of thought that was a presumed permission.

He then said that I was causing alarm amongst passengers and drivers
- which was totally not the case. There were no passengers or drivers
about at that time. And I actually don't want people in photographs of
buildings.
One of the cleaners exclaimed something in French to me but I didn't
understand. But accept that she could have been alarmed. But then she
alarmed me by not speaking in English but that's beside the point.

He then got his supervisor who asked the same question, and said he
understood that I wanted to take pictures of the architecture but I
wasn't too photograph anything in the roof, due to "heightened
security". Yet Cockfosters is without staff for several hours in the
morning and evening - if security was so heightened should this not be
addressed? Or was that a fib?

SO I then decided to check the TfL website, where I discovered some
fairly stringent rules about taking pictures, he
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/medi...aspx#section-2

TfL's website offers a "student/non professional users" £40 license
fee, that takes about three weeks to be processed and "this permit is
only a permit to film or photograph. It does not allow you to publish
or broadcast your photographs or films anywhere externally, including
on the internet..."

Then I found this:
https://custserv.tfl.gov.uk/icss_csi...ewTabtext=Tube

Taking photographs on the Tube
If you are just passing through, you shouldn't have a problem taking
personal snaps, souvenir shots etc. although you must NOT use flash or
lights on any of our platforms. However, if you want to spend more
than 10-15 minutes at any one station videoing or taking photos, or if
they are for professional use, you MUST have a permit.

So, I was correct in the presumed permission - the pictures were not
for professional use, and I was at the station for about 5 minutes.

I suppose my point is that if you want to take pictures, take a print
out of that webpage from TfL with you! And that if people mention
security as a reason for anything, I instantly lose interest in what
they are saying. It seems such an easy one-excuse-fits-all kind of
answer.


I think you were basically correct to do what you did, and I see no
reason why you should have felt obliged to ask permission for five
minutes of picture-taking. The LU guidelines are quite clear and
reasonable and they should not need to be modified to suit the
security paranoia of a particular member or members of LU staff.

However, all TfL staff are required to be very aware of potential
risks and one thing they are probably trained to look out for is
people who behave in a manner that makes them stand out. So their
response is perhaps understandable in that context.

There is one grey area in the guidelines and that is the meaning of
"for personal use". A court would have to decide precisely what that
term meant, but it would normally exclude publication (except for
editorial use). Once again, the term "publication" is not precisely
defined anywhere, and would need to be decided on in court, but the
term would normally include display on a web site or internet
file-sharing.

In message , at 00:00:30 on
Mon, 11 Apr 2011, Bruce remarked:

TfL staff are required to be very aware of potential
risks and one thing they are probably trained to look out for is
people who behave in a manner that makes them stand out.

And, obviously, terrorists doing reconnaissance will be trying hard to
stand out from the crowd.
--
Roland Perry

In article ,
Roland Perry wrote:
And, obviously, terrorists doing reconnaissance will be trying hard to
stand out from the crowd.

And the last thing you want to do in order to improve security
is to encourage knowledgable and interested members of the public
to keep their eyes open...

--
Mike Bristow

Railist wrote:


Then I found this:
https://custserv.tfl.gov.uk/icss_csi...ewTabtext=Tube

Taking photographs on the Tube
If you are just passing through, you shouldn't have a problem taking
personal snaps, souvenir shots etc. although you must NOT use flash or
lights on any of our platforms. However, if you want to spend more
than 10-15 minutes at any one station videoing or taking photos, or if
they are for professional use, you MUST have a permit.


TfL seems to have taken that page down since you posted the link to
it, although it is still available in Google's cache for now:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...ache:-vfRGwN0-
MEJ:https://custserv.tfl.gov.uk/icss_csi...Information.do
%3Bjsessionid%3D
%28J2EE704339600%29ID0483828352DB00743095560877256 388End%3Bsaplb_*%3D
%28J2EE704339600%29704339652%3FentityNum
%3D00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000003 939%26kbname%3DSDB
%26newTabtext%3DTube+site:custserv.tfl.gov.uk+%22T aking+photographs+on
+the+Tube%22&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&source=www.g oogle.co.uk
or
http://tinyurl.com/Tube-Photo-Rule-Cache

The fact that TfL is secretly trying to hide or remove its more
helpful rules like this is proof that it, like all public transport
organisations, is full of evil, sadistic *******s who like nothing
more than any flimsy excuse to make their unlucky customers suffer as
much as possible.

wrote:

Railist wrote:

Then I found this:
https://custserv.tfl.gov.uk/icss_csi...ewTabtext=Tube

Taking photographs on the Tube
If you are just passing through, you shouldn't have a problem taking
personal snaps, souvenir shots etc. although you must NOT use flash or
lights on any of our platforms. However, if you want to spend more
than 10-15 minutes at any one station videoing or taking photos, or if
they are for professional use, you MUST have a permit.


TfL seems to have taken that page down since you posted the link to
it, although it is still available in Google's cache for now:
[snip massive URL]
or
http://tinyurl.com/Tube-Photo-Rule-Cache

The fact that TfL is secretly trying to hide or remove its more
helpful rules like this is proof that it, like all public transport
organisations, is full of evil, sadistic *******s who like nothing
more than any flimsy excuse to make their unlucky customers suffer as
much as possible.

No Pippa, it's because the 'custserv' system which is used for the FAQ
section on the TfL website uses dynamic URLs or somesuch which can't be used
to directly hyperlink to particular FAQs - less than ideal, I fully grant
you, however the TfL webmaster is not sitting and monitoring discussion on
usenet or traffic flow to particular webpages and then taking them down when
they get mentioned or get too popular.

Sorry, I realise that doesn't follow the script of abject paranoia. Let me
try again...

Yes Pippa, it's hard to believe it but it seems you've finally found proof
that operatives sit in the TfL Lair Of Doom buried deep under London looking
for ways to purposefully frustrate everyone - they monitor all
communications, and are perpetually tinkering with things so as to cause
frustration so as to please their twisted psyches. Even when you do
encounter supposed helpfulness, if you look deep into their eyes you'll see
the tell tale giveaway signs that they aren't like you or I, but are in fact
lizards, who exist here on earth to fulfill some devilish masterplan so
obscure and unfathomable that we can merely wonder and shudder at their
fundamental evil.

On a lighter note, have you met Boltar? I reckon you two would get on
famously.

Mizter T wrote:

wrote:

Railist wrote:

Then I found this:
https://custserv.tfl.gov.uk/icss_csi...ewTabtext=Tube


TfL seems to have taken that page down since you posted the link to
it, although it is still available in Google's cache for now:
[snip massive URL]
or
http://tinyurl.com/Tube-Photo-Rule-Cache

The fact that TfL is secretly trying to hide or remove its more
helpful rules like this is proof that it, like all public transport
organisations, is full of evil, sadistic *******s who like nothing
more than any flimsy excuse to make their unlucky customers suffer as
much as possible.

No Pippa, it's because the 'custserv' system which is used for the FAQ
section on the TfL website uses dynamic URLs or somesuch which can't be used
to directly hyperlink to particular FAQs

Interesting. Thanks for that.

Of course, the real question is why TfL goes out of its way to use a
system that automatically hides/changes URLs all the time? What is it
trying to hide?

- less than ideal, I fully grant
you, however the TfL webmaster is not sitting and monitoring discussion on
usenet or traffic flow to particular webpages and then taking them down when
they get mentioned or get too popular.

Well, of course, if the system has been set up to hide webpages from
people automatically, then obviously the webmaster doesn't need to do
it himself.


Sorry, I realise that doesn't follow the script of abject paranoia. Let me
try again...

Yes Pippa, it's hard to believe it but it seems you've finally found proof
that operatives sit in the TfL Lair Of Doom buried deep under London looking
for ways to purposefully frustrate everyone - they monitor all
communications, and are perpetually tinkering with things so as to cause
frustration so as to please their twisted psyches. Even when you do
encounter supposed helpfulness, if you look deep into their eyes you'll see
the tell tale giveaway signs that they aren't like you or I, but are in fact
lizards, who exist here on earth to fulfill some devilish masterplan so
obscure and unfathomable that we can merely wonder and shudder at their
fundamental evil.

Sorry to disappoint you. I'm not that kind of a conspiracy theorist,
and there's no masterplan beyond simple human nature.

After all, Public Transport will always be something that no-one wants
to use, unless they reluctantly have to as a last resort. It's only
natural that people working in/for it end up sadistically taking
advantage of this, enjoying schadenfreude over our misery, and finding
ways to increase it. We'd all do the same if we were in their shoes.


On a lighter note, have you met Boltar? I reckon you two would get on
famously.

No. Although he talks a lot of good sense about transport, on just
about everything else he's a useless piece of evil right-wing ****. I
mean, he actually thinks the recent rioters were bad guys, instead of
the plucky little heroes standing up against the bourgeois control-
freaks running the powers that be. How wrong could he get?

wrote:

Mizter T wrote:

wrote:

Railist wrote:

Then I found this:
https://custserv.tfl.gov.uk/icss_csi...ewTabtext=Tube


TfL seems to have taken that page down since you posted the link to
it, although it is still available in Google's cache for now:
[snip massive URL]
or
http://tinyurl.com/Tube-Photo-Rule-Cache

The fact that TfL is secretly trying to hide or remove its more
helpful rules like this is proof that it, like all public transport
organisations, is full of evil, sadistic *******s who like nothing
more than any flimsy excuse to make their unlucky customers suffer as
much as possible.

No Pippa, it's because the 'custserv' system which is used for the FAQ
section on the TfL website uses dynamic URLs or somesuch which can't be
used
to directly hyperlink to particular FAQs

Interesting. Thanks for that.

Of course, the real question is why TfL goes out of its way to use a
system that automatically hides/changes URLs all the time? What is it
trying to hide?

It's quite annoying, I fully agree - for their FAQs (IIRC there were
separate LU and Oyster FAQs), TfL used to use the widely implemented
'custhelp' system (from a company called RightNow) which did produce static
URLs which could be quited elsewhere - I dunno if the newer 'custserv'
system is from the same company, but it seems to be a rather more
comprehensive combined FAQ and contact tool/interface - it handles a whole
range of contact possibilities for TfL as a whole (complaints / suggestions
/ report lost property / street faults etc) as well as the FAQs ("Search
Common Questions") - you can see that this all sits together in the same
interface he
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/contact

(The above is a pseudo-address which actually takes you straight into the
'custserv' pages.)

I've probably used all the wrong terminology above - the 'custserv' and
'custhelp' descriptions I used feature in the respective URLs - for example,
here's a couple of example of the 'custhelp' system in current use...

....by TheTrainline...
http://thetrainline.custhelp.com/

....and BT...
http://bt.custhelp.com/


- less than ideal, I fully grant
you, however the TfL webmaster is not sitting and monitoring discussion
on
usenet or traffic flow to particular webpages and then taking them down
when
they get mentioned or get too popular.

Well, of course, if the system has been set up to hide webpages from
people automatically, then obviously the webmaster doesn't need to do
it himself.

See above - it's an annoying feature of this particular system, and I think
it's a pretty safe bet it's an off-the-shelf system rather than being one
designed specifically by/for TfL.



Sorry, I realise that doesn't follow the script of abject paranoia. Let
me
try again...

Yes Pippa, it's hard to believe it but it seems you've finally found
proof
that operatives sit in the TfL Lair Of Doom buried deep under London
looking
for ways to purposefully frustrate everyone - they monitor all
communications, and are perpetually tinkering with things so as to cause
frustration so as to please their twisted psyches. Even when you do
encounter supposed helpfulness, if you look deep into their eyes you'll
see
the tell tale giveaway signs that they aren't like you or I, but are in
fact
lizards, who exist here on earth to fulfill some devilish masterplan so
obscure and unfathomable that we can merely wonder and shudder at their
fundamental evil.

Sorry to disappoint you. I'm not that kind of a conspiracy theorist,
and there's no masterplan beyond simple human nature.

After all, Public Transport will always be something that no-one wants
to use, unless they reluctantly have to as a last resort. It's only
natural that people working in/for it end up sadistically taking
advantage of this, enjoying schadenfreude over our misery, and finding
ways to increase it. We'd all do the same if we were in their shoes.

I know many many people who want to use public transport (no, not just me) -
you shouldn't project your own thoughts onto the populace at large.

Even if one goes along with the premise of your first sentence, I'm left
wondering at your world view, what with all this 'natural' sadism and
enjoyment of misery that again you seem to think are traits which are or
would be shared by everyone else.



On a lighter note, have you met Boltar? I reckon you two would get on
famously.

No. Although he talks a lot of good sense about transport, on just
about everything else he's a useless piece of evil right-wing ****. I
mean, he actually thinks the recent rioters were bad guys, instead of
the plucky little heroes standing up against the bourgeois control-
freaks running the powers that be. How wrong could he get?

If he turns up then you can both enjoy a nice troll fight together.

On Mon, 11 Apr 2011 16:32:57 +0100
"Mizter T" wrote:
If he turns up then you can both enjoy a nice troll fight together.

Who would look after my bridge while I was gone??

B2003

On Mon, 11 Apr 2011 07:53:19 -0700 (PDT)
" wrote:
On a lighter note, have you met Boltar? I reckon you two would get on
famously.

No. Although he talks a lot of good sense about transport, on just
about everything else he's a useless piece of evil right-wing ****. I

Its nice to be loved.

mean, he actually thinks the recent rioters were bad guys, instead of
the plucky little heroes standing up against the bourgeois control-
freaks running the powers that be. How wrong could he get?

Well quite. I probably just need to drink more Guardian Cola and then I'll
get better.

B2003