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#91
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![]() "Steve Firth" wrote in message .. . Jon Porter wrote: We already can as you must well know, but of course that is inconvenient to your argument. I've already posted the sources as you also well know. No I don't work for Serco. I could reveal it, no contractual limitations and others may already know who I work for, but I and at least two others who have read this thread prefer to just let you carry on in you own ignorance, simply because your arrogance and lack of knowledge, combined with a prejudice that is almost mind blowing, (considering what you do currently) is most entertaining! To sum up, you deny hydrogen fuel can be made cleanly, No, I deny that it came be made cleanly and economically. I have severe doubts about the sanity of the entire cycle of production by any means but you appear to know little or nothing about the energetics of hydrogen production and while you are long on words, you have been entirely bereft of facts. Seems I, and others here, know more than you (and about you for that matter!) Do some research and stop being so lazy! (Students today want it all on a plate!) The web pages that you pointed me and others towards are simply references to marketing hype. Not very helpful. Then go to the library or order the info from the links, certainly those reading this thread may find it useful even if you don't wish to. it already can be and industrial trials are under way in Canada and USA. As pointed out it uses waste biological material, glucose mixures and has nickel/tin as a catalyst instead of platinum. Low temperature process (450c) Emission neutral, and cleaner than petro-chemical processes. yawn How much? Not how much has been made, but that's a moot point too, how much does it cost to produce? You obviously didn't read the link and the subsequent links from that, the figures were all there. But I expect you'll be able to tell everyone how much it will cost to produce diesel in 5 years time? No ? Using the processes devised and todays prices , cost of Hydrogen at 2.80pnds a litre to produce,(diesel is 23p) will be reduced to around 61p a litre. The relevant costs are likely to reverse in time as oil prices rise with scarcity and hydrogen production costs come down.. The raw material for hydrogen production being renewable and the energy/material costs being lower. Remember low temperature and no need for a platinum catalyst. Additional benefits can be gained by the use of the taxation system. The less emissions, the lower the tax You deny the need to build vehicles to put fuel cells in, At this stage, yes. It's the wrong end of the problem. We know we can make vehicles containing fuel cells, it's hardly a challenge in engineering terms, just as it's not a challenge to produce vehicles running on LPG. Incorrect read on. Producing hydrogen powered vehicles today isn't research, it's showboating. prototype vehicles are needed to prove engineering principles and new materials. All well and dandy going straight into production and then finding things break. Oh dear, engineering really isn't your subject is it? I'd stick to something you do understand. Well it's plainly not yours now is it? As for me I get by on the salary I get paid for, well, engineering actually. Now, think. Hydrogen has a lower calorific value, therefore any vehicle powered by it needs to have a lighter body to gain any advantage over diesel engined vehicles. That means using some fairly exotic alloys and plastics that are rarely seen outside the motor racing or aircraft industry. If you think I or any other responsible engineer is going to sign a certificate of design acceptance on a passenger carrying vehicle to be mass produced without prototype testing, then it shows you know very little about engineering. Hence the initial costs are high as with any prototype. But in the overall scale of things small beer when the production run is started. Mercedes happen to be rather good at what they do, rather better I fear than someone not long out of sixth form. "One of my clients is *the* leader in the development of small fuel cells." No they're not, you cannot prove that any more than the companies themselves can. Even if such a relationship existed they're hardly your clients at all are they? It's like me claiming the Government is "my" client, when in fact they are clients of my employers and I simply write the report on behalf of my employers. It's a fantasy trip for you to claim as such, bit like the Firth Consultancy on the organisation part of your postings. You can rant, troll and snip on all you like, maybe your grant is being paid by a company that stands to lose out in the long run? We know some oil producers are a tad concerned at the progress made, hence their attempts to buy certain patents. Why would oil producers try to buy the patent on something being freely shared amongst research institutions, if not to stifle it's development? Unless of course they think in a few years cheap hydrogen production from renewable sources part of their business? In future, you may find it helpful, when quoting from DfT reports as support for spurious arguments, it helps if you read the full report and the subsequent links to see who the author of that same report is. That way you do not find yourself using just half the information to support all of your argument against the person who produced the data in the first place. http://www.manwillneverfly.com/ In the meantime I suggest we propose Steven Firth, as a member of the above society. |
#92
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In article , Steve Firth
writes That's "Firth Consulting", your reading skills really are suspect. I've ben trading as "Firth Consulting" since the late 80s and I'm bemused by your rant above. I'm self-employed. I issue tenders to the client, visit their premises from tie to time, undertake contracts that we agree and invoice them for the project. In what way are my clients not my clients? You know, you can argue far more credibly if your usenet posting profile doesn't reveal you to be a complete clown. -- Steve -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GCM/B$ d++(-) s+:+ a+ C++ UL++ L+ P+ W++ N+++ K w--- O V PS+++ PE- t+ 5++ X- R* tv+ b+++ DI++ G e h---- r+++ z++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ |
#93
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In article , Steve Firth
writes Steve wrote: You know, you can argue far more credibly if your usenet posting profile doesn't reveal you to be a complete clown. Was that your mission statement? You appear to have failed at your first attempt. I look forward to seeing something from you in the future that isn't a risible waste of electrons. Like most of your usenet posts, you mean? You appear to inhabit a fantasy world. Why does 'Firth Consulting' have no web presence when you have been to the trouble of buying domains and setting up web space? (and does not appear to exist in any company search I run). If you are working for clients in the fuel cell arena, why are you not registered in the two biggest directories in the fuel cell industry? You know, if you knew as much about uk usenet as you claim, you'd know who I was. -- Steve -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GCM/B$ d++(-) s+:+ a+ C++ UL++ L+ P+ W++ N+++ K w--- O V PS+++ PE- t+ 5++ X- R* tv+ b+++ DI++ G e h---- r+++ z++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ |
#94
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In article , Steve Firth
writes Steve wrote: Like most of your usenet posts, you mean? You appear to inhabit a fantasy world. You can of course provide an example that supports your amusing claim? Bear in mind that I have met several regular UK posters in RL, both socially and at work and several of them recruit my services from time to time. So it would be foolish if I were to exaggerate or plain lie about who I am and what I do. As you use x-no-archive in your posts, you know I can't. However, a quick google groups search (hardly stalking) tells me more than enough. Goodnight, troll -- Steve -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GCM/B$ d++(-) s+:+ a+ C++ UL++ L+ P+ W++ N+++ K w--- O V PS+++ PE- t+ 5++ X- R* tv+ b+++ DI++ G e h---- r+++ z++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ |
#95
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Steve Firth wrote:
Aidan Stanger wrote: Steve Firth wrote: Aidan Stanger wrote: Even if you believe that it's unlikely to ever become commercially viable, that does not excuse your assumption that hydrogen generation will continue to be as environmentally inefficient as it currently is. Me and Ricardo Engineering eh? If that is what they're assuming then yes. They are assuming nothing. Well in that case, no - 'tis just you. The lack of fasibility lies in the energetics of the transformation of the feedstock. This is not going to change, ever, because it's a physical constant. I supplied an example of how it is likely to. If and when Iceland (or somewhere with surplus renewable energy) starts exporting that energy as hydrogen, your assumption will be disproven regardless of physical constants. You appear to be advocating basing your opinions on the assumption that it will never happen. IMNSHO that isn't a sensible belief. Why should "belief" replace "evidence"? The only people who do that are religious fanatics and the hydrogen "economy" appears to the source of a new religion "cheap clean power for everyone, if only you beleive". Belief shouldn't replace evidence - that's my point! Your assumptions are based on beliefs not facts. Even though some of those beliefs are themselves based on evidence, they're not based on ALL the evidence. Nor do I claim that they are. However you appear to be short of evidence yourself. What you have posted above is belief, not evidence. You beleive that if someone knows ALL the evidence that they will conclude that hydrogen is a feasible fuel. Fine, you don't even need to post ALL the evidence, just the relevant part. You are the one making the claim that the future situation will be the same as the status quo! I'm merely telling you why I consider that to be unlikely. Off you go. I regard hunting URLs as rather boring, so will not just collect evidence because you tell me to! What evidence would be sufficient for you to conceed the point? I need no excuse for being sceptical of the claims of snake oil salesmen. Nor should you. I need no "belief" in miracle solution to producing hydrogen, because pysically it simply is not possible. No, you believe it is not possible. Evidence suggests otherwise, because places like Iceland have abundant renewable energy that can't be exported in the conventional way (unless there's an enormous rise in the cost of electricity, construction of very long undersea electricity cables is unlikely to ever be profitable). Exporting hydrogen is the obvious solution for them, and it's not a coincidence that Iceland's more enthusiastic about the hydrogen economy than any other nation. As long as there's a demand for it, there will be some hydrogen available. Care to quanitify what proportion of the world's energy needs can be produced by Iceland? No, I thought not. Who said anything about THE WORLD'S energy needs? This is about whether or not it will be available in the forseeable future, not whether or not it will gain a large market share. There's also nuclear energy, where power generation is cheap but the output can't easily be varied. I believe hydrogen generation is probably going to be a good way of using up the surplus produced in offpeak times. You may believe it isn't, but that is just a belief, not a fact. No, the figures for the cost of generating hydrogen from nuclear fission wer eone of the issues I addressed early in this futile thread. I can't find any mention from you. What's the messageID? It's one of the more expensive options, even using off-peak energy. The figures for hydrogen production for the next 20 years have been\0 estimated by Ricardo and the DfT. Unless some mystic moonbeam technology Is electrolysis from geothermal energy a "mystic moonbeam technology"? Is electrolysis from geothermal: 1) Clean (A: no, there is the evolution of hydroxide radicals and AIUI those have a pollution-reducing effect (although I'd be very surprised if the quantity produced were enough to make any measurable impact anyway). chlorine to consider, Obviously the equipment would have to be designed not to emit significant amounts of chlorine. Do you think this would be a problem? not to mention the potential for global warming and depletion of the ozone layer that results from the escape of hydrogen gas during manufacture. Hydrogen is as significant a greenhouse gas as methane.) Hydrogen is far more easily oxidized than methane, so won't be around for as long. As for the ozone layer, do you really think it's a threat? Although it reacts with ozone, it doesn't catalytically destroy it the way chlorine monoxide does. 2) Globally significant (A: No. Good luck to those countries with geothermal energy but on a global scale they represent a tiny fraction of the world's energy needs.) Hence my next comment: appears then it's simply not feasible to rely on a hydrogen economy. That depends on what you mean by "rely on". I know as well as you do that hydrogen isn't going to be the main form of energy distribution. However, I do think people are going to start using it for certain purposes, of which city buses may be one. (And no, I don't think we'll ever reach the situation where ALL the buses are hydrogen powered - 'tis more likely they'll only use them on the routes where the air pollution levels are highest). as well as rubbishing/trying to discourage others from pursuing the research. I'm not trying to dissuade anyoen from research. However farcical publicity stunts without any relevant end application such as these crazy bus scheme do nothing positive. Why do you not consider running buses on hydrogen to be a "relevant end application"? One million quid a bus, This is only the cost for the prototype. They'd be a lot cheaper once they got into series production. The buses in question are costing a million a package, No, this particular question relates to a relevant end application, not the trial itself. it is not a relevant end application Answer the question: why not? and it does nothing positive. IMO reducing pollution in city streets is something positive. Your belief in what may happen in future is irrelevant to discussion of the motives for this particular cynical piece of explotation and manipulation of public perception. That is merely your belief! energy costs that are unquantified bu at present hydrogen costs likely to be ovr 10 times the cost of running a bus on diesel, greater emissions (in total) than runnign the same bus on diesel. None of which will be true when hydrogen from renewables becomes readily available. Ow, just look at that beleif system click into action. When will this mythical cheap renewable hydrogen come into being then? Did I claim I knew?? In what way is this scheme relevant to anythign other than a bit of advertising and an attempt to shoehorn development costs out of government (i.e. out of the pockets of the taxpayer)? It is relevant to understanding the obstcles to the commercialization of this technology. You seem to think that generating the hydrogen is the only problem, but that's far from the case. It is the immovable, unanswerable, unaddressed problem that the advocates of a hydrogen economy want to ignore. Not all of them want to ignore it - many of their jobs depend upon it! It's not research, Does this mean you think that the results of this trial won't lead to either a better design of hydrogen bus or an abandonment of the idea? In what way is doing somethign that we already know is possible, but economically and environmentally pointless "research"? Because economic factors change, and in the future it may be worthwhile. And just because we know something is possible doesn't mean we know how best to do it. Unforseen problems may take a long time to solve, so it is sensible to start sooner rather than later. Answer the question. I thought I did! I guess I'll have to break it down a bit more so it's easier for you to digest! We know it's possible, but finding out what the best way of doing it, and what the pitfalls to avoid are is research. The fact that it is currently economically and environmentally pointless does not mean the research is worthless, because there is a signigicant chance that the economic and environmental factors will change - there are certainly a lot of people working on trying to change them. This is as much research as those people that telephone during dinnertime and say "I'm doing research on behalf of insert scamming company here." These buses won't interrupt your dinner, so what's the problem? Your failure to understand an analogy is noted. Your incorrect assumption that I failed to understand an analogy is noted. all it is is cynical marketing at its worst. What IYO makes it "cynical"? Do you regard every publicity stunt as so? Those responsible for the bus know that it cannot be sold to operators without massive subsidy. They're not trying to sell these buses. In the future it is likely that they will be able to sell hydrogen buses to operators without massive subsidy. They are selling the buses. They are obtaining the money fromt he ockets of public via taxation but the buses are nontheless being sold. I was under the impression they were being leased. They know that it's not even a viable form of transport. They do not yet know under what conditions it will become a viable form of transport. This trial should help to establish that. Utter hogwash. This 'trial' is a marketing showcase and nothing more. Evidence? They claim environmental benefits while knowign that not only are there *no* environmental benefits, The reduction in local pollution on busy city streets is an environmental benefit. Not to those of us who live outside cities. Even they might want to visit some time! Anyway, surely people don't personally have to benefit from something in order to consider it an environmental benefit! It's no more than NIMBY technology, moving the pollution of the city into the extra-urban environment. Moving it from where it has a significant impact to where it doesn't. Besides, as others have pointed out, pollution can more easily be controlled in fixed locations than in vehicles. It also saddles those who have no need for such a solution with the costs of implementing that solution. Not if those who need a solution are the ones paying. And it remains not much of a solution. That's a different issue. Pollution on city streets is currently represented more by diesel than by other fuels. Which supports what I've been saying. Indeed in my own immediate area, measurements of urban pollution showed that pollutions was increasing as cars were removed from the streets by provision of park and ride and gating the city centre to prevent access by private vehicles. It's difficult to confirm that data because once it became available, the local authority pulled all the reports and stopped measuring the decline in air quality. After all they don't want facts to obscure dogma do they? I don't know. Who are your local authority? but that use of hydrogen as a fuel is less sustainable and less efficient than use of hydrocarbons. That only applies to hydrogen generated from hydrocarbons, No it applies to hydrogen generation from almost any source. It is less efficient to generate hydrogen then to oxidise it to produce electricty than it is to use that electricity directly. It is less efficient to produce hydrogen from a fuel source than it is to use that fuel directly in the first place. You are of course correct on that. Sorry, I was trying to make the point that there are fuel sources for which your statement does not hold true. and even then it may be possible to do it efficiently (making use of the heat generated in the process). We produce waste industrial heat now. Any of our industrial processes could be made more efficient by re-using that waste heat. yet in general heat recovery schemes are few and far between. Why should this change for hydrogen production? I hope it will change for the other things! BTW there is another scenario that I think you should consider. IMO it's unlikely, but since your predictions of future events are so different to mine, I'm wondering what you'd make of it: Cheap oil runs out (or at least production peaks and declines). Much of the remaining oil is very deep and can not be (environmentally or economically) efficiently extracted. Instead, fuel is made synthetically using natural gas and a zeolite catalyst. Hydrogen is produced as a byproduct. Uh huh, and why should natural gas be more available than oil? In the UK it looks likely that natural gas supplies will be exhausted before oil reserves. Although it's a fine margin of error. AIUI the opposite is the case in Bahrain. And around the world (notably in Australia and NZ) there are many gasfields that don't produce oil. Let me put it to you this way: About 20% of the nation's energy consumption is represented by transport. The overwhelming majority of energy used goes upon industrial and space heating requirements. Much of that energy requirement can be provided by electricity, directly, no need for hydrogen as an intermediate carrier. So if we are serious about reducing atmospheric pollution, we don't have to **** around with hydrogen, all we need to do is to generate all our electricity without emissions. True to some extent, but atmospheric pollution is not proportional to CO2 emissions. Vehicles contribute much more to atmospheric pollution. That technology exists today, in the form of nuclear energy. So all we have to do is to stop using natural gas, oil and coal for power production and to build nuclear. At a stroke (about a five to ten year development cycle) we would reduce CO2 emissions to the level where we would have no need to worry about the minority use of fuel in transport. Indeed, one of your own solutions was electrolysis of water usign nuclear energy. So why **** about with this energetically unfavourable process? Just use the electricity where it is needed and save emissions. Because the output of nuclear reactors can't easily be varied, so if you rely more on nuclear energy then as well as electricity when you need it, you get a lot of it when you don't. Hence my suggestion of using the surplus to generate hydrogen. However, there may be a better way of doing it. I think thorium reactors are the way of the future - they give you more control of the process and don't produce the radioactive waste that conventional fission reactors do. They do this "research" in order to gain publicity and public support from unthinking dupes. They certainly try to gain publicity from it (as many companies do) but that tells us nothing about the validity (or otherwise) of the research. It tells us a great deal, the publicity is more important than the research. It tells us the publicity is important. It does not tell us about the relative importance. Utter ********. If any body proposes something with as far reaching consequences as a change to hydrogen as a fuel then they had better damn well ahve *done* their research. And there's an awful lot of research to do. This is only a small part. This is not research. Have you got any evidence for that claim? Have you any evidence that it is research? Not much - just their claim, the fact that it's been officially accepted, and simple logic (they've got everything set up to do some reaearch so it would be incredibly stupid for them not to). Do you have any evidence that their claim is fraudulent? Not be asking the rest of us to follow along as an act of faith. Just how exactly are the hydrogen bus builders doing that??? Do keep up. I'm way ahead of you! I know why you think the hydrogen bus builders are doing that, but have you actually got any evidence? sigh Hydrogen, costs more to produce than nydrocarbon fuels, less energetically efficient to produce than hydrocarbon fuels, results in greater emissions of CO2 rather than reducign emissions. No prospect of clean hydrogen in the pipeline in the forseeable future. That last sentence is your opinion, not evidence. hence any adoption of hydrogen as a fuel can only be an act of faith and in the short term more damaging than status quo. Could you not think that out for yourself? But nobody's going to buy a fleet of hydrogen buses until that changes. I see no evidence that they're expecting us to follow along until we have proof of the viability. Fuel cells are a diversion from the real issues. Claiming hydrogen to be "zero emission" is a dioversion from the facts and does the proponents of a hydrogen economy no favours. Apart from H2O and heat, there are no emissions - it will actually reduce the amount of pollution in the air. Untrue. Evidence? [Note that in the article you were replying to, I was referring to hydrogen use NOT hydrogen generation] I know you were trying to duck the issue, but you cannot. You cannot consider point of use in isolation. To do so is the mark of an idiot or a liar. Claiming that I cannot consider the point of use and the point of manufacture separately marks YOU as an idiot or a liar! Your claim to know that I was trying to duck the issue is a lie. If I were trying to duck the issue I wouldn't've mentioned it in the very next sentence! I was making the point that for the purpose of these trials (which are about how well the buses work) it should be seen as a separate issue. Moving pollution elsewhere is not reducign pollution. Some types of pollution are more of a problem locally than globally. Again, hogwash. Pollution is pollution. Ozone is a good counterexample. Near ground level it's pollution, but higher up it isn't. How would you measure the cost of pollution? Hydrogen generation is a different issue. It can be zero emission and I expect that in the future most of it will be. However, you should remember that this is only a trial of the hydrogen buses. At this stage it is best to get hydrogen from the most readily available source, whatever that is. It's best to forget the damn things until hydrogen can be manufactured from renewable or at the very least carbon-neutral sources. Otherwise it's just ****ing in the wind. Hydrogen can ALREADY be manufactured from renewable sources! Yes, yes, of course it can. Where can I buy a cylinder of this mythical moonbeam hydrogen then? How should I know? Hydrogen is hydrogen! AFAIK it's not in commercial production yet, BICBW. |
#96
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![]() "Steve Firth" wrote in message ... liefstyles. You want to move round in a city? Fine, use public transport, don't expect to own a car. ! |
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