wrote:

In article ,
(Paul Scott) wrote:

"Mizter T" wrote:

The most direct route from H&I to Putney is undoubtedly via the
Vic line and Vauxhall, but a non-zone 1 H&I to Putney fare
wouldn't be a completely ludicrous addition to the system.

Indeed if Colin was determined to cut his costs on the journey he
could travel to East Putney on the District Line, and use the pink
validator at West Brompton to 'prove' his route. Confirming your
point that pink validators only work for a subset of possible
journeys, and also suggesting (perhaps) that only the West Brompton
pink validator is relevant to this journey, not those at Willesden
Jn.

It also shows how mad it all is, because it is perfectly feasible
to get to West Brompton via zone 1...

I wanted to grice the whole of the bits of the NLL and ELL I've not been
on before so I wanted to go all the way to Clapham Junction.

Just talked to the Oyster Helpline who ended up ringing me back too. They
say the £1.90 was correct, because of the Clapham Junction to Putney leg
being charged at NR rates.

However, they decided I shouldn't have been charged £1.25 for the King's
Cross to Highbury leg so have refunded that money. As collecting at an
Oyster gate requires an overnight transaction and I won't be using Oyster
tomorrow they have made the refund direct to my bank account. Is that a
new option? Jolly useful if so.

I see *absolutely nothing wrong whatsoever* with the £1.25 charge for your
KXSP to H&I leg - that's how much an off-peak single for a Railcard holder
costs for this journey - look it up if you don't believe me, it's on this
page:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/14416.aspx#tkt-tab-panel-8

Also there's no reason whatsoever why the KXSP to H&I journey should be
conjoined together with the H&I to Putney journey (given that you exited and
then re-entered at H&I)- and indeed no such conjoining of these two separate
journeys occurred.

Therefore there's *no need* to refund you - so I will draw a further
conclusion from this (which you won't like at all) which is that just
because the Oyster helpline proffers a punter a refund, that doesn't
actually mean that anything actually went wrong with how the system charged
you. I'll state this clearly now lest you or others point to this incident
as proof that the system gets it wrong - rather I'm saying that you were
charged correctly and the Oyster Helpline got it wrong by offering you a
refund.

Lastly (as you seem to acknowledge) there's nowt wrong with the H&I to
Putney fare being £1.90 - that's the cost of a Railcard-discounted, off-peak
zones 1&2 TfL+NR through fare, as can be seen here (see the second table for
"through fares"):
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/14414.aspx#tkt-tab-panel-9


As an aside, it does feel like you're being a bit petty about what are
really rather small sums of money - now if the system had charged you
incorrectly, that would be a different matter as I'd agree it'd be about the
principle of the matter, but as the system has charged you correctly I can't
see what the problem is, apart from your apparent desire to do a bit of
'gricing' for the absolute bare minimum outlay - my take on it is simply
that if someone wants to take a completely roundabout route (and KX to
Putney via Whitechapel, the ELL, NLL and WLL is just that), then really they
shouldn't be too miffed about it setting them back two single fares instead
of one.

However, I guess it's been one way of demonstrating that the Oyster system
does charge people correctly, even if the charging system is so complex that
some of the Oyster Helpline cs bods aren't quite on top of it all. (A
slightly alternative take on that is that the Oyster Helpline is pretty free
and easy when it comes to giving out refunds, and perhaps it's sometimes
more a case of getting a customer off their back than working through the
charges with them - the point however would remain the same, that just
because a refund is given, it doesn't inherently prove that the original
charges were wrong.)

One thing that would of course help in making it all that bit more
comprehensible would be if there was a single Oyster PAYG tariff rather than
the current arrangement of there being separate TfL (i.e. Tube & DLR), NR
and TfL+NR 'through' journey tariffs. However getting to that point isn't
likely to be remotely easy (see how long it took for the TOCs to adopt
Oyster PAYG universally in London).

On Tue, 5 Jul 2011 12:11:01 +0100
"Mizter T" wrote:
As an aside, it does feel like you're being a bit petty about what are
really rather small sums of money - now if the system had charged you
incorrectly, that would be a different matter as I'd agree it'd be about the
principle of the matter, but as the system has charged you correctly I can't
see what the problem is, apart from your apparent desire to do a bit of
'gricing' for the absolute bare minimum outlay - my take on it is simply
that if someone wants to take a completely roundabout route (and KX to
Putney via Whitechapel, the ELL, NLL and WLL is just that), then really they
shouldn't be too miffed about it setting them back two single fares instead
of one.

So what you're really saying is that if someone wants to do a perfectly legal
journey to avoid zone 1 so they pay less then they shouldn't complain when TfL
just takes their money anyway?

B2003

wrote:

On Tue, 5 Jul 2011 12:11:01 +0100
"Mizter T" wrote:
As an aside, it does feel like you're being a bit petty about what are
really rather small sums of money - now if the system had charged you
incorrectly, that would be a different matter as I'd agree it'd be about
the
principle of the matter, but as the system has charged you correctly I
can't
see what the problem is, apart from your apparent desire to do a bit of
'gricing' for the absolute bare minimum outlay - my take on it is simply
that if someone wants to take a completely roundabout route (and KX to
Putney via Whitechapel, the ELL, NLL and WLL is just that), then really
they
shouldn't be too miffed about it setting them back two single fares
instead
of one.

So what you're really saying is that if someone wants to do a perfectly
legal
journey to avoid zone 1 so they pay less then they shouldn't complain when
TfL
just takes their money anyway?


No, that's not what I'm really saying - though I wouldn't expect an accurate
reflection of my comments from the one they call Boltar.

What I did say is that there's no non-z1 fare from H&I to Putney - fact, see
the fare finder. And the TfL blurb is clear in stating that "Some journeys
have been defined as requiring travel via Zone 1 and will be charged
accordingly, irrespective of the route taken".

What is needed here is for a non-z1 fare from H&I to Putney to be created -
however, that's not the issue that Colin appears to have taken to the Oyster
Helpline (instead he seemed to be complaining about the fact that he was
quite correctly charged two fares instead of one).

How best to raise the issue of creating a non-z1 fare for a journey such as
this is another matter. I think such a fare would be a good idea - after all
it already exists for H&I to Clapham Junction, so putting it in place for
journeys to destinations which require a change at CJ such as Putney seems
perfectly reasonable (especially since a journey via z1 could easily be
determined as it'd require passage through the LU and then NR gatelines at
either Vauxhall or Waterloo). However Colin's complaint to the Oyster
Helpline won't have succeeded in getting that issue flagged up and fed
through the feedback system to anyone who might be able to act on it,
because his complaint was about something else.

On Tue, 5 Jul 2011 15:04:47 +0100
"Mizter T" wrote:
What I did say is that there's no non-z1 fare from H&I to Putney - fact, see
the fare finder. And the TfL blurb is clear in stating that "Some journeys
have been defined as requiring travel via Zone 1 and will be charged
accordingly, irrespective of the route taken".

Can't say I'm surprised. The zone system is only ever used as a way of
extracting the most money from of passengers and if theres a way someone could
use it to get a lower fare then by its nature TfL will move its own goalposts
to make sure that can't happen.

B2003

wrote:

On Tue, 5 Jul 2011 15:04:47 +0100
"Mizter T" wrote:
What I did say is that there's no non-z1 fare from H&I to Putney - fact,
see
the fare finder. And the TfL blurb is clear in stating that "Some journeys
have been defined as requiring travel via Zone 1 and will be charged
accordingly, irrespective of the route taken".

Can't say I'm surprised. The zone system is only ever used as a way of
extracting the most money from of passengers and if theres a way someone
could
use it to get a lower fare then by its nature TfL will move its own
goalposts
to make sure that can't happen.

If you follow that logic through then there wouldn't be any alternative
non-z1 fares available, nor would TfL have moved Hampstead Heath back into
z2 (from z3) and Willesden Junction back to being a z2/3 station (from being
in z3).

Though I remain irked about the withdrawal of non-z1 daily caps and Day
Travelcards (e.g. for z2-6), which means that pax who may go nowhere near z1
still end up paying for (or more to the point contributing towards) zone 1
validity when it's not needed (and that comes from someone who said they'd
not be a 'zone 1 Mayor', but I'll leave that to one side for now).

That, and the placing of the new Shoreditch High St station in z1 rather
than z2, does show a bit of a disconnect with the policy of encouraging
people to avoid z1 (and so take some pressure off the Tube in the centre)
and instead make their journey orbitally if possible.

All that said, there are a number of journeys which are charged as if they
avoid z1, but where you can travel the z1 route if you want to. And non-z1
season Travelcards can offer pretty good value for money.

On Sun, 03 Jul 2011 19:11:31 -0500,
wrote:

To amplify my question, I'm thinking of Kings Cross St Pancras to
Whitechapel, Whitechapel to Highbury and Islington, Highbury and Islington
to Clapham Junction via Willesden Junction and Clapham Junction to Putney.
The TfL journey planner reckons that takes just under two hours.

Will an Oyster timeout cause me a problem?

Do you suspect that if you would have touched in and out at the ends
of each of those journeys, and any pink'uns along the way, that you
wouldn't have been charged the correct amount? It's a real question -
I think, for me at least, that the object of the exercise has been
lost in all the detail up-thread! I would absolutely expect the total
charge and any cap applied to be right.

Recently a journey into, and then another shortly after out of
Waterloo was combined into an OSI (or easement maybe?) to make me
£1.20 better off. "Bank error in your favour".

Richard.

On Jul 5, 3:09*pm, wrote:
On Tue, 5 Jul 2011 15:04:47 +0100

"Mizter T" wrote:
What I did say is that there's no non-z1 fare from H&I to Putney - fact, see
the fare finder. And the TfL blurb is clear in stating that "Some journeys
have been defined as requiring travel via Zone 1 and will be charged
accordingly, irrespective of the route taken".

Can't say I'm surprised. The zone system is only ever used as a way of
extracting the most money from of passengers and if theres a way someone could
use it to get a lower fare then by its nature TfL will move its own goalposts
to make sure that can't happen.

B2003

What utter nonsense. Your argument boils down to "I want to pay
exactly what I think I should pay". Your attitude reeks of egomania
by the way; the idea that Transport for London spends its time looking
for ways to overcharge you is quite sad really.

In article , (Mizter T)
wrote:

wrote:

In article ,
(Paul Scott) wrote:

"Mizter T" wrote:

The most direct route from H&I to Putney is undoubtedly via the
Vic line and Vauxhall, but a non-zone 1 H&I to Putney fare
wouldn't be a completely ludicrous addition to the system.

Indeed if Colin was determined to cut his costs on the journey he
could travel to East Putney on the District Line, and use the pink
validator at West Brompton to 'prove' his route. Confirming your
point that pink validators only work for a subset of possible
journeys, and also suggesting (perhaps) that only the West Brompton
pink validator is relevant to this journey, not those at Willesden
Jn.

It also shows how mad it all is, because it is perfectly feasible
to get to West Brompton via zone 1...

I wanted to grice the whole of the bits of the NLL and ELL I've not
been on before so I wanted to go all the way to Clapham Junction.

Just talked to the Oyster Helpline who ended up ringing me back too.
They say the £1.90 was correct, because of the Clapham Junction to
Putney leg being charged at NR rates.

However, they decided I shouldn't have been charged £1.25 for the
King's Cross to Highbury leg so have refunded that money. As
collecting at an Oyster gate requires an overnight transaction and I
won't be using Oyster tomorrow they have made the refund direct to my
bank account. Is that a new option? Jolly useful if so.

I see *absolutely nothing wrong whatsoever* with the £1.25 charge
for your KXSP to H&I leg - that's how much an off-peak single for a
Railcard holder costs for this journey - look it up if you don't
believe me, it's on this page:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/14416.aspx#tkt-tab-panel-8

I agree that the table shows that. But with a railcard I would expect a
Zones 1 & 2 journey to be £1.25, as a King's Cross to Putney fare would be.

Also there's no reason whatsoever why the KXSP to H&I journey
should be conjoined together with the H&I to Putney journey (given
that you exited and then re-entered at H&I)- and indeed no such
conjoining of these two separate journeys occurred.

I rather thought so but I did touch out and immediately in again.

Therefore there's *no need* to refund you - so I will draw a
further conclusion from this (which you won't like at all) which is
that just because the Oyster helpline proffers a punter a refund,
that doesn't actually mean that anything actually went wrong with
how the system charged you. I'll state this clearly now lest you or
others point to this incident as proof that the system gets it
wrong - rather I'm saying that you were charged correctly and the
Oyster Helpline got it wrong by offering you a refund.

You could be right there but they didn't just refund me. They took my
number and rang me back some minutes later. So someone checked it much
more carefully than could be done during a call. Maybe they just thought
that the fact that there is no fare avoiding zone 1 was unfair and this
was a refund they could make as compensation.

Lastly (as you seem to acknowledge) there's nowt wrong with the H&I
to Putney fare being £1.90 - that's the cost of a
Railcard-discounted, off-peak zones 1&2 TfL+NR through fare, as can
be seen here (see the second table for "through fares"):
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/14414.aspx#tkt-tab-panel-9

That is where I disagree with you. If there are not-via-zone 1 fares this
seems a reasonable one which should exist. If there is a higher fare for a
zone 2 - zone 1 - zone 2 journey then there really should be a not via
zone 1 fare option.

As an aside, it does feel like you're being a bit petty about what
are really rather small sums of money - now if the system had
charged you incorrectly, that would be a different matter as I'd
agree it'd be about the principle of the matter, but as the system
has charged you correctly I can't see what the problem is, apart
from your apparent desire to do a bit of 'gricing' for the absolute
bare minimum outlay - my take on it is simply that if someone wants
to take a completely roundabout route (and KX to Putney via
Whitechapel, the ELL, NLL and WLL is just that), then really they
shouldn't be too miffed about it setting them back two single fares
instead of one.

However, I guess it's been one way of demonstrating that the Oyster
system does charge people correctly, even if the charging system is
so complex that some of the Oyster Helpline cs bods aren't quite on
top of it all. (A slightly alternative take on that is that the
Oyster Helpline is pretty free and easy when it comes to giving out
refunds, and perhaps it's sometimes more a case of getting a
customer off their back than working through the charges with them
- the point however would remain the same, that just because a
refund is given, it doesn't inherently prove that the original
charges were wrong.)

One thing that would of course help in making it all that bit more
comprehensible would be if there was a single Oyster PAYG tariff
rather than the current arrangement of there being separate TfL
(i.e. Tube & DLR), NR and TfL+NR 'through' journey tariffs. However
getting to that point isn't likely to be remotely easy (see how
long it took for the TOCs to adopt Oyster PAYG universally in
London).

I thought there was. There are tables showing fares for pretty well all
zone combinations so I reasonably thought it applied to my journey and
that making the non-trivial effort to touch the pink validator at
Willesden Junction (try it some time if changing there from a Richmond to
a Clapham Junction train) I decided to pursue the charge.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

On Tue, 5 Jul 2011 12:18:11 -0700 (PDT)
Jack wrote:
Can't say I'm surprised. The zone system is only ever used as a way of
extracting the most money from of passengers and if theres a way someone =
could
use it to get a lower fare then by its nature TfL will move its own goalp=
osts
to make sure that can't happen.

B2003

What utter nonsense. Your argument boils down to "I want to pay
exactly what I think I should pay". Your attitude reeks of egomania

Why read what I wrote when you can just make something up eh?

Your attitude just reaks of bull**** btw. If you have some free time find out
how easy it is to get a zone 2 only 1 day travelcard. Or maybe a zone 3 and
4 only. Oh , whats that? You can't buy them because TfL insists on you paying
for zone 1 outwards no matter whether you need those zones or not?

Now **** off back under your bridge.

B2003

On Jul 6, 9:42*am, wrote:
On Tue, 5 Jul 2011 12:18:11 -0700 (PDT)

Jack wrote:
Can't say I'm surprised. The zone system is only ever used as a way of
extracting the most money from of passengers and if theres a way someone =
could
use it to get a lower fare then by its nature TfL will move its own goalp=
osts
to make sure that can't happen.

B2003

What utter nonsense. *Your argument boils down to "I want to pay
exactly what I think I should pay". *Your attitude reeks of egomania

Why read what I wrote when you can just make something up eh?

Your attitude just reaks of bull**** btw. If you have some free time find out
how easy it is to get a zone 2 only 1 day travelcard. Or maybe a zone 3 and
4 only. Oh , whats that? You can't buy them because TfL insists on you paying
for zone 1 outwards no matter whether you need those zones or not?

Now **** off back under your bridge.

B2003

nice.

how appalling - a transport authority that actually makes the rules
itself, rather than defer to you.

enjoy your angry ranting.