*Date:* Mon, 25 Jul 2011 11:41:25 +0000 (UTC)

On Mon, 25 Jul 2011 11:42:40 +0100
David Cantrell wrote:
I was talking to someone a week or two ago about an employee
who got into trouble because he took a day off at short notice
to move house (one of those occasions where they didn't know
the completion date until the last minute).
In the worst case, why does someone actually need to be present
when a removals firm is moving you?

To let them in the front door. To make sure they don't nick stuff.
Etc.

The lack of flexibility in taking time off is a great reason why
tube
drivers should be highly paid IMO.

Many jobs are inflexible about taking time off. That doesn't mean
they should
all earn a fortune. 45K is an absurb salary for such a low skilled
job.
And don't anyone tell me how they have to be highly trained
technitions for when
things go wrong - they just go through a troubleshooting checklist
and if that doesn't work they call control and read their paper. A
trained chimp could
do it.

B2003


I have taken people who've never touched a train before and, after half an
hour, have got them driving reasonably well. A ten year old could no doubt
drive the train in the same amount of time. It might take an untrained
chimp about one hour though. It's a "piece of ****", as they say! However,
and I don't expect you to understand this, the untrained chimp has to know
rather a lot of knowledge before they be classed as trained.

This includes:
Signal operation (and it is slightly more complicated than red = stop,
green = go!), and signalling principles

Rolling stock operation, train equipment, dealing with defects. This
includes learning all about the equipment, recognising faults, knowing
what to do if the train comes to a sudden stop, won't go, doors won't open
/ close, or the important things like the kettle in the cab doesn't work,
or the toaster only browns one side of the bread, and just about anything
else you can think off - just in case the chief chimp isn't answering the
radio or the radio's defective.

Line Knowledge - knowing all there is about the line, where the signals
are, the types of signals, what moves can be done, where the substations
are, how to take current off, what happens if current comes off.

And all sorts of other information such as what to do if / when you a get
a one-under, a bomb goes off on your train or the train catches fire.

However, I must admit there is less to learn than when I first started,
and I'm sure it will get to the point where a chimp can be woken up, given
a banana and operate the train remotely from his cage just by pushing a
few buttons and watching a TV!

Of course, the latest thing is distance learning, a sort of cut down Open
University course for a driver's job. Sign up, and you get sent a home
learning pack and simulator for the line of your choice. Learn at your
leisure, take an online CBT exam and driving test then, if you pass,
report for your medical and Drugs and Alcohol test. If you pass that,
you're then given the key to the train and off you go. I'm sure you'll
agree that's a much better way of doing things than wasting all these
months training drivers. That way, if there's any hint of a strike, you
can just say - "you're fired" and bring on the next lot of instant drivers!

Roger

*From:* David Cantrell
*Date:* Mon, 25 Jul 2011 11:53:32 +0100

On Fri, Jul 22, 2011 at 02:51:02PM -0500,
wrote:

Drivers are not allowed to do overtime (the unions won't allow it)

Why do the unions have any say in the matter? If a driver wants to
work
overtime, and his manager has work for him to do, then it seems
crazy to
stop them.

--
David Cantrell | A machine for turning tea into grumpiness

Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity
-- Hanlon's Razor

Stupidity maintained long enough is a form of malice
-- Richard Bos's corollary


I'm not quite sure of the reasoning behind this on the Underground -
overtime is worked on the stations. Rest day working is also worked on the
mainline (I don't know if it's agreed with all train companies). It isn't
because of the amount of actual time worked. When I joined, you worked a
five day 40-hour week, Monday to Saturday. Sundays (one on, one off,
giving an average 44 hour week) were always classed as overtime. Although
they were rostered and you could say in advance "I don't want to work
Sunday", very few people did. However, you couldn't work any of your
booked rest days, although this was sometimes done unofficially or during
training.

The Company Plan was introduced in the early 90s when there were sweeping
changes made to the terms and conditions and everybody had to sign new
contracts if they still wanted their job. Apart from going onto salaried
status (paid monthly, at a flat rate, instead of hourly at enhanced
rates), one of the major changes was the introduction of a five day 40
hour week when Sundays were classed as no different from any other day and
the week ran from Sunday to Saturday. It's possible that this was when
overtime was tightened up as the only official overtime (Sundays) was no
longer relevant.

Personally, I'm neutral over the overtime ban
Whilst it might be useful to occasionally work a bit of overtime if you
need a bit of extra money, it would be too easy to get into the trap of
being used to that extra money all the time and so effectively get trapped
into having to work the overtime all the time out of need. Of course this
applies to any job, however high or low paid.

Roger

*From:* Roland Perry
*Date:* Mon, 25 Jul 2011 12:16:23 +0100

In message , at
11:53:32 on Mon, 25 Jul 2011, David Cantrell
remarked:
Drivers are not allowed to do overtime (the unions won't allow
it)

Why do the unions have any say in the matter? If a driver wants
to work
overtime, and his manager has work for him to do, then it seems
crazy to
stop them.

You seem to be overlooking the "collective" in Collective
Bargaining.

If the unions have decided that they'd prefer more jobs (which
equates to more subs and also an easier sell that every member
needs a 'living wage' without overtime), rather than fewer jobs
with flexibility via overtime, then everyone gets lumbered with
that decision.
--
Roland Perry

That always seems to be the union's argument, whenever this has been
brought up.

Another side to whether overtime (in the form of rest day working) is
worked or not is the effect from a company's point of view. It's probably
cheaper to pay overtime than recruit extra staff. The cost of more staff
being much higher than existing staff working overtime (because of all
sorts of overheads such as uniform, nation insurance etc.}.
For a company, staff working overtime is probably a more flexible way of
covering additional work, temporary vacancies etc.

Like staff getting used to more pay, companies get used to their staff
working overtime. This can have a bad side, as the FCC work to rule last
year(?) proved, with the large amount of trains that were being frequently
cancelled due to no staff available. Because it takes so long to train
staff up, they can't suddenly say "we'll stop rest day working". They have
to allow up to six months for new, additional drivers to be trained up.

Roger

On Mon, 25 Jul 2011 15:47:59 -0500
wrote:
This includes:
Signal operation (and it is slightly more complicated than red = stop,
green = go!), and signalling principles

What, you mean there's amber and white too? How do they cope!

Rolling stock operation, train equipment, dealing with defects. This
includes learning all about the equipment, recognising faults, knowing
what to do if the train comes to a sudden stop, won't go, doors won't open
/ close, or the important things like the kettle in the cab doesn't work,
or the toaster only browns one side of the bread, and just about anything
else you can think off - just in case the chief chimp isn't answering the
radio or the radio's defective.

Most people who operate machinery need to have that sort of knowledge. They
don't all earn 45K.

Line Knowledge - knowing all there is about the line, where the signals
are, the types of signals, what moves can be done, where the substations
are, how to take current off, what happens if current comes off.

So in other words like learning my journey to work , where the petrol
stations are, where the best rat runs are. Where I can stop for a coffee/pee
if I need to, which roads tend to get clogged around 9am school start, the
best diversions to use if there's a major cock up on the 406.

And thats just to GET to work , its not what I do when I'm there.

And all sorts of other information such as what to do if / when you a get
a one-under, a bomb goes off on your train or the train catches fire.

Whatever it is they didn't do it very well on 7/7.

months training drivers. That way, if there's any hint of a strike, you
can just say - "you're fired" and bring on the next lot of instant drivers!

It might give Comrade Crowe pause for thought.

B2003

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 08:52:57 on Mon, 25 Jul
2011, tim.... remarked:

You have to find somewhere to move to (which is clearly much easier if
the
last landlord gives you a reference along the lines of "I had to go to
court to evict him"). Finding somewhere isn't always easy, and can
result
in quite a small window during which you have to move. As part of the
"employer unreasonableness" issue is whether the day in question is
taken
as paid, paid leave, or unpaid leave, money can be an issue and not
everyone can afford to have a big overlap where you are paying two sets
of
rent at once.

We're specifically talking about 45K pa employees here

Are you? Oddly enough, the example I had in mind was someone on around
that salary too.

I'm not sure what you think changes if the salary differs a lot from that.

The loyalty shown to the company.

This is a relatively simple skilled job. It commands a high(ish) salary
because of the ****ty shift system that is required. Taking the salary and
then expecting not to have to conform to the ****ty shift system is TTP
IMHO.

tim

"David Cantrell" wrote in message
k...
On Fri, Jul 22, 2011 at 06:09:34PM +0100, tim.... wrote:
"Roland Perry" wrote:
All very interesting stuff. Thanks. Must be quite a problem for drivers
to
see a GP if it's one of those surgeries where you can't get an
appointment
(even for non-urgent things) until you try calling the reception at 8am
the same day.
So they go to the doctors on a day when they are on lates.

Must be nice to be able to schedule your sickness. It's a trick I have
yet to manage.

Roland is talking about scheduling routine appointments of the sort that you
would be expected to make in your own time (he's linking this point with an
alternative discussion about doctor's crappy appointments systems that we
had elsewhere). If you are sick on the day, you take the day off as any
normal person would.



I was talking to someone a week or two ago about an employee who got
into
trouble because he took a day off at short notice to move house (one of
those occasions where they didn't know the completion date until the
last
minute).
In the worst case, why does someone actually need to be present when a
removals firm is moving you?

To let them in the front door. To make sure they don't nick stuff.
Etc.

The lack of flexibility in taking time off is a great reason why tube
drivers should be highly paid IMO.

It's a reason why they ARE I agree. but if they take the carrot they have
to accept the stick IMHO.

tim

In message , at 11:32:19 on Tue, 26 Jul
2011, tim.... remarked:
We're specifically talking about 45K pa employees here

Are you? Oddly enough, the example I had in mind was someone on around
that salary too.

I'm not sure what you think changes if the salary differs a lot from that.

The loyalty shown to the company.

So you are postulating a correlation between salary and loyalty?

This is a relatively simple skilled job. It commands a high(ish) salary
because of the ****ty shift system that is required.

You seem to be overly focussed on one job. I've been speaking much more
generally.
--
Roland Perry

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 11:32:19 on Tue, 26 Jul
2011, tim.... remarked:
We're specifically talking about 45K pa employees here

Are you? Oddly enough, the example I had in mind was someone on around
that salary too.

I'm not sure what you think changes if the salary differs a lot from
that.

The loyalty shown to the company.

So you are postulating a correlation between salary and loyalty?

if you including skill level/responsibility, yes.


This is a relatively simple skilled job. It commands a high(ish) salary
because of the ****ty shift system that is required.

You seem to be overly focussed on one job. I've been speaking much more
generally.

Why? The answer that I replied to was specifically about the shift of LU
train drivers. How is it the slightest bit reasonable to assume that I was
talking about all workers?

tim

In message , at 13:01:30 on Tue, 26 Jul
2011, tim.... remarked:

So you are postulating a correlation between salary and loyalty?

if you including skill level/responsibility, yes.

Then you are doomed to be disappointed.

Assuming you mean there's a positive correlation, I've know highly paid
senior managers to be some of the least loyal, and low paid foot
soldiers the most.

This is a relatively simple skilled job. It commands a high(ish) salary
because of the ****ty shift system that is required.

You seem to be overly focussed on one job. I've been speaking much more
generally.

Why? The answer that I replied to was specifically about the shift of LU
train drivers. How is it the slightest bit reasonable to assume that I was
talking about all workers?

I have no reason to believe the strictures of moving house are limited
only to tube train drivers.
--
Roland Perry

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 13:01:30 on Tue, 26 Jul
2011, tim.... remarked:

So you are postulating a correlation between salary and loyalty?

if you including skill level/responsibility, yes.

Then you are doomed to be disappointed.

I not saying I'm expecting staff to give it. I'm saying that it's
reasonable for the employer to expect it.

Assuming you mean there's a positive correlation, I've know highly paid
senior managers to be some of the least loyal, and low paid foot soldiers
the most.

This is a relatively simple skilled job. It commands a high(ish) salary
because of the ****ty shift system that is required.

You seem to be overly focussed on one job. I've been speaking much more
generally.

Why? The answer that I replied to was specifically about the shift of LU
train drivers. How is it the slightest bit reasonable to assume that I
was
talking about all workers?

I have no reason to believe the strictures of moving house are limited
only to tube train drivers.

Obviously not,

tim