Mizter T wrote:

Greece might have got on better if, well, it had managed itself a bit
better. The Irish seemed to know how to play the game a bit better
(though the initially impressive Celtic tiger got caught up inflating
itself beyond all reasonable proportions during the boom, of course).


Both Ireland and Greece fell into the same trap. Exactly the same
trap. Cheap borrowing fuelled an unsustainable boom that was founded
on ... well, nothing.

Britain also fell into the same trap, but we appear better able to
escape because our currency devalued by more than a quarter. Ireland
and Greece don't have that luxury, being stuck in the Euro.

In terms of debt, thanks to Gordon Brown, Britain is actually more
indebted than Greece.

On Oct 16, 11:35*pm, burkey wrote:
This is the first meeting of our new season.

IRRS London Area meetings take place in the Exmouth Arms, *1 Starcross
Street, LONDON NW1, 5 minutes walk from Euston station (west on
Drummond Street, north on Cobourg Street ) – see the pub’s website atwww.exmouth-arms.co.uk.

The Speaker this month is Oliver Doyle, former Operations Schemes
Development Manager, Irish Rail.

Thursday 20th October 2011 *“Modernisation of Irish Rail : 1997 -
2011”
Oliver Doyle, former Operations Schemes Development Manager, Irish
Rail Oliver reflects on the almost total reconstruction of the Irish
Rail network following the Knockcroghery derailment in 1997. His paper
covers the transformation of the railway system from mixed operation
to a predominantly high frequency passenger operation, from loco-
hauled trains to push-pull and multiple unit, supported by extensive
track renewals and track layout changes, new signalling systems, and
upgrading of stations and passenger facilities.

The meeting begins at 19.00, and book sales are available from 18.30.

We hope to see you on Thursday.

.................................................. ......
.................................................. ......
John Burke
IRRS - London

If Oliver Doyle is half as good as he was for the RSA on our visit to
the west of Ireland in 2008 you are in for an entertaining and
educational evening. He gave a most erudite and articulate talk on IE
well illustrated with his own photographs as well as arranging visits
to railway installations such as the Athlone level crossing control
centre. Great stuff!

Regards

Chris Turnbull

For the benefit of those living within easy reach of Birmingham,
Oliver Doyle is giving his talk TOMORROW to the Midlands section of
the Railway Study Association: Wednesday 19 October at 1800 in the
Mailbox, non-members welcome.

"In what became known as the era of the Celtic Tiger, the economy of
the Republic of Ireland grew at an extraordinary rate. Its cities and
towns developed fast, and the railway network was asked to play a
major part in meeting the needs of growth, especially in the Dublin
region. Oliver Doyle took part in its response. He is, as those who
have heard him before will confirm, an excellent speaker, and this
will be a most interesting and informative presentation."

Chris Turnbull wrote:

If Oliver Doyle is half as good as he was for the RSA on our visit to
the west of Ireland in 2008 you are in for an entertaining and
educational evening. He gave a most erudite and articulate talk on IE
well illustrated with his own photographs as well as arranging visits
to railway installations such as the Athlone level crossing control
centre. Great stuff!

I have also heard him speak before and was very impressed.

Cheers,
John

In uk.railway Arthur Figgis wrote:
And Ireland has actually got a renewed railway network out of it all.
How has, say, Greece got on in the same period?

Greece has got:

Double track electrified main line on about 2/3 of main N-S axis (up to
about 160km/h due to all the mountains) - previously severely speed
restricted twisty single line with no upgrades since 1950s.
Electrified routes in Macedonia
Athens suburban railway network (didn't exist before) and interchanges with
N/S and E/W axis routes
Athens tram
Athens metro extensions, including new link to new airport
Thessaloniki tram
Major renewals of metre gauge network in Pelopponnese and isolated network
near Messolonghi
~50% stock renewal
Opening of new Greece/Turkey passenger service
New high speed (as much as the geography will allow) route Athens-Patras
under construction

But of course OSE was haemorraging cash... partly because fares have
historically be heavily state subsidised (the train being a social service
the way that British rural buses are, Greek buses being semi-commercial
operations).

So the short term cost slashing has been to close the entire metre gauge
network (including the bit near Messolonghi that never saw a train) leaving
new trains and track to the mercy of metal thieves. Severe service cuts
including all international trains, a number of standard gauge routes
closed.

After making the above list, it's struck me how much was achieved despite
the mismanagement that pervades many projects (eg spend 5 years renewing a
section of metre gauge track, and then close it a few months after it
opened).

THeo

In misc.transport.rail.europe Hans-Joachim Zierke wrote:
That Greece /got/ a lot, is out of question. Like those Hellas-Sprinter
locomotives on the yard tracks, which were bought for several millions
per piece, and never saw any service in the last 10 years, for lack of
ability to complete the electrification.

So it makes more sense to ask about /results/.

Indeed, there are plenty of other examples, and yet more happening today in
the name of 'austerity'... just look at the pictures of trashed new stock
he
http://www.amnizia.com/site/index.ph...71&It emid=73

In terms of bang per buck it's probably fairly dire. But merely listing the
number of bangs is instructive in realising the amount that /was/ achieved
(and the EU mostly paid for).

Theo

Hans-Joachim Zierke wrote:
That Greece /got/ a lot, is out of question. Like those Hellas-Sprinter
locomotives on the yard tracks, which were bought for several millions
per piece, and never saw any service in the last 10 years, for lack of
ability to complete the electrification.

So it makes more sense to ask about /results/.


I wholeheartedly agree. Unfortunately, there are too many people who
believe that spending is an end in itself, when what matters is how
well that money is spent, and what return it provides.

In the UK, we had 13 years of a Labour government that valued spending
above all else, but paid very little attention to what that spending
actually achieved. They proudly published figures for their huge
increases in public spending; meanwhile, it was mostly difficult to
see just what value this spending had delivered, apart from a debt
that is worse than that of Greece.

So any criticism of Greece, however soundly based, should be carefully
made, because Britain also has plenty of examples of where
ridiculously large amounts of money have been spent, yet little or
nothing has been achieved.

On 19/10/2011 12:44, Theo Markettos wrote:

In uk.railway Arthur wrote:
And Ireland has actually got a renewed railway network out of it all.
How has, say, Greece got on in the same period?

Greece has got:

Double track electrified main line on about 2/3 of main N-S axis (up to
about 160km/h due to all the mountains) - previously severely speed
restricted twisty single line with no upgrades since 1950s.
Electrified routes in Macedonia
Athens suburban railway network (didn't exist before) and interchanges with
N/S and E/W axis routes
Athens tram
Athens metro extensions, including new link to new airport
Thessaloniki tram

How is the Thessalonki metro coming on these days?

Major renewals of metre gauge network in Pelopponnese and isolated network
near Messolonghi

Haven't they shut the whole lot?

~50% stock renewal
Opening of new Greece/Turkey passenger service

But no international links today? Even Ireland has one rail link to the
evil imperialistic neighbour...

New high speed (as much as the geography will allow) route Athens-Patras
under construction

But of course OSE was haemorraging cash... partly because fares have
historically be heavily state subsidised (the train being a social service
the way that British rural buses are, Greek buses being semi-commercial
operations).

So the short term cost slashing has been to close the entire metre gauge
network (including the bit near Messolonghi that never saw a train)

Quite. They have at least run trains on the Midleton or Limerick-Galway
lines.

leaving
new trains and track to the mercy of metal thieves. Severe service cuts
including all international trains, a number of standard gauge routes
closed.

Ireland has lost Waterford - Rosslare, which is obviously sad but it was
pretty hopeless.

After making the above list, it's struck me how much was achieved despite
the mismanagement that pervades many projects (eg spend 5 years renewing a
section of metre gauge track, and then close it a few months after it
opened).

I'm not sure I'd call that an achievement :-)

--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

On 19/10/11 18:51, Bruce wrote:

So any criticism of Greece, however soundly based, should be carefully
made, because Britain also has plenty of examples of where
ridiculously large amounts of money have been spent, yet little or
nothing has been achieved.

Amongst the most notorious of which must be the "flood protection"
schemes of the 90s on which a huge amount was spent but which when put
to the test proved woefully inadequate.

Ian

On 19/10/2011 14:44, Theo Markettos wrote:

After making the above list, it's struck me how much was achieved despite
the mismanagement that pervades many projects (eg spend 5 years renewing a
section of metre gauge track, and then close it a few months after it
opened).

THeo

One common theme on these projects was a horrible mismanagement.
As far as I know, NONE of the projects managed by ERGOSE (the project
management part of OSE group) was delivered on time and inside the
allocated budget.

The run up to Athens Olympics in 2004 was a once-in-a-lifetime chance to
rebuild the Greek rail network - and they blew it.

Lots of delays, legal wrangles, etc. conspired so that when the Olympic
games passed (and the funding suddently stopped), nearly nothing has
finished beyond Athens Metro two new lines (even these, in the rush to
reach Athens airport, skipped two stations that had to be built later,
closing again the line for nearly a year).

One major problem is that the legal system is so hopelessly plugged and
slow (at the moment, there are nearly half a million cases to be
resolved at the courts), and even after a project starts anybody can
stall it using legal means (adding to delays and extra costs).

Add to that that the managers had opened too many projects in parallel
instead of focusing in the critical Athens-Thessaloniki mainline, and
you start getting the idea (I hope)

N.F.

On 19/10/2011 20:35, The Real Doctor wrote:
On 19/10/11 18:51, Bruce wrote:

So any criticism of Greece, however soundly based, should be carefully
made, because Britain also has plenty of examples of where
ridiculously large amounts of money have been spent, yet little or
nothing has been achieved.

Amongst the most notorious of which must be the "flood protection"
schemes of the 90s on which a huge amount was spent but which when put
to the test proved woefully inadequate.


The best flood protection is to stop building on the flood plains.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read, substitute trains for rail.
Railway Miscellany at www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail