On 01/11/2011 15:05, Basil Jet wrote:
On 2011\11\01 08:26, Nightjar wrote:
On 01/11/2011 06:26, Basil Jet wrote:
On 2011\11\01 00:44, Nightjar wrote:
On 31/10/2011 22:12, Basil Jet wrote:
On 2011\10\31 21:50, Clive D. W. Feather wrote:
In message , Roland Perry
wrote:
Near where I live there's an old set of traffic lights with three
lanes for left, right and ahead, which has the same directional
control of lane markings and green arrows, but no "forced
left/right"
signs (by which I assume you mean the blue arrows).

You could argue that you're not forced to use the lanes for any given
direction. So long as a leftwards arrow is lit and you drive with
appropriate care, you can turn left from any lane.

Under the new method, if you're approaching a crossroads where one
turn
is banned, but you don't know whether it's the left or right which is
banned, and the road splits in two just before the lights, and both
branches are showing a red light, how can you work out which side to
use
to go forward? I suppose the answer is "use the lane markings", but in
snow or even in night-time rain these can be hard to see.

If one turn is banned, then there is a traffic order in place and there
will be a sign to indicate that. With that, it should be obvious which
of the two lanes to choose.

No. The old rules would mean that the light in the left side slip would
have a blue left arrow or a blue forward arrow, and the right side slip
would have a blue forward arrow or a blue right arrow. Under the new
rules, neither slip would have any blue arrow at all, and you couldn't
tell which slip was for forward until the green arrows came on.

There are no 'new rules'. The positioning and use of signs is described
in detail the Traffic Signs Manual, parts of which were first published
nearly 40 years ago, and the advice has only changed in detail for most
of that time. The use of regulatory (round) signs is further controlled
by the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions, the current
version of which was issued in 2002, although it has its basis in the
Warboys Report of 1963.

The white on blue round directional arrow sign and the black and white
in a red circle turn prohibited signs can only be used if a traffic
order is in place. A traffic order would apply to the whole junction,
not to individual lanes within that junction. Therefore, neither type of
sign can be used if there is no restriction on turning at the junction,
even if it is not correct to turn in a particular direction from a
particular lane.

At a junction where there is no restriction on turning, but there are
dedicated turn lanes, the correct sign to use, in addition to road
markings and green arrows in the lights, would be to diagram 877 of the
Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2...chedule/4/made

That gives drivers warning well in advance of the junction as to which
lane they need to be in when they get there, so they do not need last
minute signs at the junction itself.

Thanks. Does that mean that when there is a turning left slip, and the
main carriageway has a banned left turn sign, that this sign has no
legal force because it is not backed by a traffic order, and it is legal
for you to ignore the banned left turn sign and turn left from the main
carriageway, even though you may be driving over a pedestrian crossing
which is in the green man phase?

I wouldn't bet on it, as it would not be impossible to word a traffic
order to allow that, but, as it could be confusing, it is not a
recommended layout.

Colin Bignell

On 31/10/2011 21:49, Clive D. W. Feather wrote:
In message , Nick
Finnigan wrote:
time. So, is the new signage legal? it seems like a backward step to me.
They are legal. In principle you are disobeying the lights by turning.
The lack of signs showing the prohibitions is a very good defence.

I doubt it very much. You'd have to show that the sign showing the
prohibition was part of the statutory requirement, and I can't see any
wording suggesting that. The green arrow *is* the prohibition.

Only the red light is an statutory offence. Green arrows would have to
come under 'careless driving', and if the additional signing is not up to
the standards in the manual, you have a good defence.

On 31/10/2011 22:12, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 21:50:53 on Mon, 31 Oct
2011, Clive D. W. Feather remarked:
Near where I live there's an old set of traffic lights with three lanes
for left, right and ahead, which has the same directional control of
lane markings and green arrows, but no "forced left/right" signs (by
which I assume you mean the blue arrows).

You could argue that you're not forced to use the lanes for any given
direction. So long as a leftwards arrow is lit and you drive with
appropriate care, you can turn left from any lane.

Even if that means passing a red light (because the middle lane in question
isn't yet showing a "straight ahead" green arrow)?

Yes, provided the lanes are just white lines, not kerbs.

On Wed, 02 Nov 2011 22:23:38 +0000, Nick Finnigan
wrote:
Yes, provided the lanes are just white lines, not kerbs.

Without kerbs or similar you don't have lane dedicated traffic lights
in the UK anyway. It can't work because of the need for the
"distant" light set.

Neil

--
Neil Williams, Milton Keynes, UK

In message , at
22:23:38 on Wed, 2 Nov 2011, Nick Finnigan remarked:
You could argue that you're not forced to use the lanes for any given
direction. So long as a leftwards arrow is lit and you drive with
appropriate care, you can turn left from any lane.

Even if that means passing a red light (because the middle lane in question
isn't yet showing a "straight ahead" green arrow)?

Yes, provided the lanes are just white lines, not kerbs.

The one I'm thinking of has a small traffic island, but you could turn
left past it; in other words you are saying the silver hatchback here
could immediately turn left (despite being in the wrong lane and facing
a red light): http://tinyurl.com/6kkff8b
--
Roland Perry

In message , at
07:39:53 on Thu, 3 Nov 2011, Neil Williams
remarked:
Yes, provided the lanes are just white lines, not kerbs.

Without kerbs or similar you don't have lane dedicated traffic lights
in the UK anyway. It can't work because of the need for the "distant"
light set.

And you need an island to put the "near" light on. See the picture I
just posted. [I'm not sure if it qualifies under the "just white lines"
category or not...]
--
Roland Perry

On 2011\11\03 06:39, Neil Williams wrote:
On Wed, 02 Nov 2011 22:23:38 +0000, Nick Finnigan wrote:
Yes, provided the lanes are just white lines, not kerbs.

Without kerbs or similar you don't have lane dedicated traffic lights in
the UK anyway. It can't work because of the need for the "distant" light
set.

I think I've seen it somewhere in the Hertfordshire / Essex area...

On 03/11/2011 07:23, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 22:23:38
on Wed, 2 Nov 2011, Nick Finnigan remarked:
You could argue that you're not forced to use the lanes for any given
direction. So long as a leftwards arrow is lit and you drive with
appropriate care, you can turn left from any lane.

Even if that means passing a red light (because the middle lane in question
isn't yet showing a "straight ahead" green arrow)?

Yes, provided the lanes are just white lines, not kerbs.

The one I'm thinking of has a small traffic island, but you could turn left
past it; in other words you are saying the silver hatchback here could
immediately turn left (despite being in the wrong lane and facing a red
light): http://tinyurl.com/6kkff8b

No, because there are separate stop lines for the two sets of lights.

In message , at
17:45:57 on Thu, 3 Nov 2011, Nick Finnigan remarked:
You could argue that you're not forced to use the lanes for any given
direction. So long as a leftwards arrow is lit and you drive with
appropriate care, you can turn left from any lane.

Even if that means passing a red light (because the middle lane in question
isn't yet showing a "straight ahead" green arrow)?

Yes, provided the lanes are just white lines, not kerbs.

The one I'm thinking of has a small traffic island, but you could turn left
past it; in other words you are saying the silver hatchback here could
immediately turn left (despite being in the wrong lane and facing a red
light): http://tinyurl.com/6kkff8b

No, because there are separate stop lines for the two sets of lights.

Does it require a physical barrier like the traffic island to create
*separate* stop lines - or could paint achieve it as well?
--
Roland Perry

On 03/11/2011 18:44, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 17:45:57
on Thu, 3 Nov 2011, Nick Finnigan remarked:
You could argue that you're not forced to use the lanes for any given
direction. So long as a leftwards arrow is lit and you drive with
appropriate care, you can turn left from any lane.

Even if that means passing a red light (because the middle lane in
question
isn't yet showing a "straight ahead" green arrow)?

Yes, provided the lanes are just white lines, not kerbs.

The one I'm thinking of has a small traffic island, but you could turn left
past it; in other words you are saying the silver hatchback here could
immediately turn left (despite being in the wrong lane and facing a red
light): http://tinyurl.com/6kkff8b

No, because there are separate stop lines for the two sets of lights.

Does it require a physical barrier like the traffic island to create
*separate* stop lines - or could paint achieve it as well?

Dunno, I'd need to see an example.

I'm thinking of junctions like Cross Street (A56) and Dane Road in Sale.
4 1/2 lanes, markings for left, ahead, ahead, right but only one stop line
(+two 'advance' stop lines), no kerbs / separate slip roads. However, two
complete sets of lights to allow turning on a filter, from any lane.