On Thu, 19 Jan 2012 16:41:47 -0000
"Tim Roll-Pickering" wrote:

I fail to see how it would be harder to get off a bus with 3 large exit
doors
than one with 1 small exit door (the front one is entrance only on DDs).

Because the bendy vestibles were far more packed and had people trying to
move in all directions.

They were more packed because you could get more people on them.

Please list them. The only one I can think of is for people who like a
nice
view from the top deck. Well I'm sorry, but thats hardly a good reason.

A more realistic official capacity.

Which is still less than a bendy.

More seats.

True, but not that important for short journeys.

A clearer passenger flow.

A more difficult passenger flow you mean. Once the gangway from driver
to rear door is blocked with standees its a bugger to get on and the bus
sits at the stop for ages blocking traffic.

Just for starters and that's even before we get to the issue of how much
road space they took up.

And how much roadspace would 2 double deckers with the same capacity as 1
bendy take up?

Sorry, I must be missing the logic of your argument.

For the final time the point is people believed that because they were free
buses they attacted far more passengers than if they had to be paid for -

For the final time - no one bloody cares! Do you honestly think people look
around at fellow passengers wondering if they've paid the fare? And are you
seriously suggesting that in each bus there were dozens of fare dodgers who
would otherwise have walked?? Get real.

All that said, I think Boris was elected for other reasons as well,
particularly Lee Jasper.

Well quite.

B2003

d wrote:

I fail to see how it would be harder to get off a bus with 3 large exit
doors
than one with 1 small exit door (the front one is entrance only on DDs).

Because the bendy vestibles were far more packed and had people trying to
move in all directions.

They were more packed because you could get more people on them.

They were more packed because of a higher use, in part because of the free
bus aspect discussed below, and because overall there was less capacity on
the route.

Please list them. The only one I can think of is for people who like a
nice
view from the top deck. Well I'm sorry, but thats hardly a good reason.

A more realistic official capacity.

Which is still less than a bendy.

Yes but the ratio of changeover wasn't 1:1.

More seats.

True, but not that important for short journeys.

There were lots of long journeys made on them - my local route had bendies
running from Bond Street to Ilford.

A clearer passenger flow.

A more difficult passenger flow you mean. Once the gangway from driver
to rear door is blocked with standees its a bugger to get on and the bus
sits at the stop for ages blocking traffic.

Just for starters and that's even before we get to the issue of how much
road space they took up.

And how much roadspace would 2 double deckers with the same capacity as 1
bendy take up?

You would not get the two flowing together as a single unit, serving as one
very lengthy obstacle that blocks and neds to be overcome.

Sorry, I must be missing the logic of your argument.

For the final time the point is people believed that because they were
free
buses they attacted far more passengers than if they had to be paid for -

For the final time - no one bloody cares! Do you honestly think people
look
around at fellow passengers wondering if they've paid the fare?

It was quite a common comment by many that they assumed that, albeit usually
only stated once they were off the buses.

And are you
seriously suggesting that in each bus there were dozens of fare dodgers
who
would otherwise have walked?? Get real.

Well how do you explain the preference of many very short hoppers around
Stratford and the Romford Road for the bendy 25 over the doubl decker 86? Or
the more bearable loadings on the 25 now it's a double decker?

W don't know for sure how much fare dodging there was because ticket
inspections in that neck of the woods were so rare.

On Thu, 19 Jan 2012 19:17:57 -0000
"Tim Roll-Pickering" wrote:
For the final time - no one bloody cares! Do you honestly think people
look
around at fellow passengers wondering if they've paid the fare?

It was quite a common comment by many that they assumed that, albeit usually
only stated once they were off the buses.

Hmm , I wonder. And did it stop them using the bus? It seems not.

And are you
seriously suggesting that in each bus there were dozens of fare dodgers
who
would otherwise have walked?? Get real.

Well how do you explain the preference of many very short hoppers around
Stratford and the Romford Road for the bendy 25 over the doubl decker 86? Or

Probably because people prefered getting on a bendy bus instead of struggling
onto a double decker especially if they had shopping or kids or had trouble
walking. If you're not that mobile then getting up the stairs on a moving
bus isn't much fun.

the more bearable loadings on the 25 now it's a double decker?

How many more double deckers compared to bendies are they running on that
route?

W don't know for sure how much fare dodging there was because ticket
inspections in that neck of the woods were so rare.

As I've said, thats an administration issue, its not a fault of the bus
design. With a 17 year high in unemployment they can hardly claim that they
can't find the staff.

B2003

d wrote:

For the final time - no one bloody cares! Do you honestly think people
look
around at fellow passengers wondering if they've paid the fare?

It was quite a common comment by many that they assumed that, albeit
usually
only stated once they were off the buses.

Hmm , I wonder. And did it stop them using the bus? It seems not.

In most cases they had no choice.

And are you
seriously suggesting that in each bus there were dozens of fare dodgers
who
would otherwise have walked?? Get real.

Well how do you explain the preference of many very short hoppers around
Stratford and the Romford Road for the bendy 25 over the doubl decker 86?
Or

Probably because people prefered getting on a bendy bus instead of
struggling
onto a double decker especially if they had shopping or kids or had
trouble
walking. If you're not that mobile then getting up the stairs on a moving
bus isn't much fun.

They did not have shopping or kids (not that you'd want to take significant
amounts of shopping on a ram packed bendy like the 25 was). They were just
taking advantage of the free bus for a few stops.

the more bearable loadings on the 25 now it's a double decker?

How many more double deckers compared to bendies are they running on that
route?

I don't have the statistic to hand, but it's a not a 1:1 conversion ratio.

And here's one for you - if the bendies were so fantastic and the double
deckers clearly so outdated why weren't there bendies on more routes?

On Fri, 20 Jan 2012 13:29:15 -0000
"Tim Roll-Pickering" wrote:
And here's one for you - if the bendies were so fantastic and the double
deckers clearly so outdated why weren't there bendies on more routes?

I've no idea. Cost, reliability, lots of nearly new DDs already in service
that they didn't want to bin? AFAIR the bendies replaced a lot of routemasters
that were put out to grass. Anyway , I'm simply giving a (former) passengers
point of view, not an operational one.

People in this group and others talk about double decker trains not being as a
good a solution for transporting a lot of passengers compared to longer single
deck trains because of dwell times at stations yet for some reason that logic
goes out the window when appled to buses. The only reason I can see is some
misty eyed nostaligia for double decker buses. God knows why.

B2003

d wrote:

And here's one for you - if the bendies were so fantastic and the double
deckers clearly so outdated why weren't there bendies on more routes?

I've no idea. Cost, reliability, lots of nearly new DDs already in service
that they didn't want to bin? AFAIR the bendies replaced a lot of
routemasters
that were put out to grass.

Very few of the bendified routes took over from routemasters. Many of them
took over from the more conventional double deckers.

People in this group and others talk about double decker trains not being
as a
good a solution for transporting a lot of passengers compared to longer
single
deck trains because of dwell times at stations yet for some reason that
logic
goes out the window when appled to buses.

Part of that is rooted in the different considerations on dwell times and
the speed of boarding/disembarking. The height restrictions of many rail
routes make double decker carriages extremely difficult to operate - the
4DDs were an especially cramped design. Plus railways can include ticket
checks before boarding, a feature not easily built into buses.

The only reason I can see is some
misty eyed nostaligia for double decker buses. God knows why.

Reasons aplenty have been given on this thread and others for why the double
decker is preferred. If you choose not to see them then you choose not to
see them.

In article ,
(Tim Roll-Pickering) wrote:

Very few of the bendified routes took over from routemasters. Many of
them took over from the more conventional double deckers.

Most of the bendy routes were in the last batch of Routemaster routes before
final conversion started in earnest. The only exception I can recall is the
29 but I expect there were others.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

On Fri, 20 Jan 2012 19:42:30 -0000
"Tim Roll-Pickering" wrote:
People in this group and others talk about double decker trains not being
as a
good a solution for transporting a lot of passengers compared to longer
single
deck trains because of dwell times at stations yet for some reason that
logic
goes out the window when appled to buses.

Part of that is rooted in the different considerations on dwell times and
the speed of boarding/disembarking. The height restrictions of many rail

Dwell times of buses make a lot of difference to traffic stuck behind them.

4DDs were an especially cramped design. Plus railways can include ticket
checks before boarding, a feature not easily built into buses.

Buses can include conductors which is what boris is suggesting for his
vanity project. Which means he could equally have put them on bendy buses
and the whole fair evasion issue would have disappeared.

The only reason I can see is some
misty eyed nostaligia for double decker buses. God knows why.

Reasons aplenty have been given on this thread and others for why the double
decker is preferred. If you choose not to see them then you choose not to
see them.

When I see a good reason I'll get back to you.

B2003