Paul Corfield wrote in message . ..

Recent [TfL Board Minutes] agendas have included draft business
plans, bus strategic plans, fares policy etc. There is the 2004 Business
Plan which lays out a range of (funding and plan) options including
extending LUL fares to all TOC services within the zonal area so we have
full integration - all for £10m pa.

I really don't like the idea of extending LUL fares to all TOC
services within the zonal area. And I'm confused as to how it would
/cost/ £10m pa. It might /generate/ an extra £10m pa though.

LUL fares are a rip-off. A weekly point-to-point season from my Z2
home station to "London Terminals" is £7.70. Obviously it is not
valid for use on tubes or buses or for any other rail journeys but it
works out very cheap for me. I'd much rather buy that basic ticket
and top-up with cash fares where necessary than spend £19-odd on a Z12
weekly Travelcard. However, the beauty of the current system is that
I can choose to buy the more expensive ticket if it suits my travel
pattern better; I'm not forced to.

There is also stuff about extending
Pre-Pay and funding mods to TOC ticket machines and gates to allow it to
work.

A good idea but, IMO, only if the current, much better value, TOC
fares are retained.

On 11 Jan 2004 07:43:55 -0800, (Steph Davies) wrote:

Paul Corfield wrote in message . ..

Recent [TfL Board Minutes] agendas have included draft business
plans, bus strategic plans, fares policy etc. There is the 2004 Business
Plan which lays out a range of (funding and plan) options including
extending LUL fares to all TOC services within the zonal area so we have
full integration - all for £10m pa.

I really don't like the idea of extending LUL fares to all TOC
services within the zonal area. And I'm confused as to how it would
/cost/ £10m pa. It might /generate/ an extra £10m pa though.

LUL fares are a rip-off. A weekly point-to-point season from my Z2
home station to "London Terminals" is £7.70. Obviously it is not
valid for use on tubes or buses or for any other rail journeys but it
works out very cheap for me. I'd much rather buy that basic ticket
and top-up with cash fares where necessary than spend £19-odd on a Z12
weekly Travelcard. However, the beauty of the current system is that
I can choose to buy the more expensive ticket if it suits my travel
pattern better; I'm not forced to.

but I'm not referring to season tickets. I'm talking about single and
return fares and unless I've missed something recently TOC fares have
always been higher than the equivalent LUL fare. Therefore integrated
fares would have the effect of lowering prices for most people and would
remove the usual summation effect of the LUL price and TOC price being
added together when people make a journey that involves interchange - eg
Oxford Circus to East Croydon via Victoria. The fact that income would
fall for the TOCs means there is a cost to TfL from lowering the fares.
TOCs have bid on the basis of an income stream assuming the old fares
regime - those who propose the change have to fund any revenue loss.

I've not read anything about short distance point to point seasons being
affected by the proposal. I understand your particular example and can
see why you would prefer the flexibility to keep the current
arrangement. Such cases would have to be considered to avoid undue
hardship being caused - something the statutory passenger bodies would
be concerned about.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

On Sun, 11 Jan 2004 18:41:46 +0000, Paul Corfield
wrote:

but I'm not referring to season tickets. I'm talking about single and
return fares and unless I've missed something recently TOC fares have
always been higher than the equivalent LUL fare.

Off peak return fares on National Rail are usually cheaper than tube
fares because tube returns are still twice the single, whereas TOC off
peak day returns are usually almost not much more than a peak single.

Examples:

East Croydon to London Terminals
3.60 Standard Day Single
4.70 Cheap Day Return
6.00 Standard Day Return

Zone 5 to Zone 1 tube fa
3.50 Single
7.00 Return
(5.40 Off Peak Day Travelcard)

East Croydon to Clapham Junction
3.10 Standard Day Single
3.60 Cheap Day Return
5.00 Standard Day Return

Zone 5 to Zone 2 tube fa
2.20 Single
4.40 Return
(3.80 Off Peak Day Travelcard)

On Sun, 11 Jan 2004 19:32:41 +0000, Richard Adamfi
wrote:

On Sun, 11 Jan 2004 18:41:46 +0000, Paul Corfield
wrote:
but I'm not referring to season tickets. I'm talking about single and
return fares and unless I've missed something recently TOC fares have
always been higher than the equivalent LUL fare.

Off peak return fares on National Rail are usually cheaper than tube
fares because tube returns are still twice the single, whereas TOC off
peak day returns are usually almost not much more than a peak single.

Factor in new Oyster Pre-Pay fares and things get vey odd for
(e.g.) Walthamstow Central to London Terminals:

NR weekdays & W/O a Rail Card:
2.40 Standard Day Single
3.00 Cheap Day Return
3.80 Standard Day Return

Tube Zone 3 to Zone 1:
2.50 Single
5.00 Return
(4.70 Off Peak Day Travelcard)

Oyster Pre-Pay Weekend fares:
1.80 Single
3.60 Return

WAGN weekends with Rail Card:
1.60 Standard Day Single
2.00 Cheap Day Return
2.50 Standard Day Return

From non-season ticket holders, makes life very confusing!


Cheers,

Jason.

Steph Davies wrote:
Paul Corfield wrote in message . ..

Recent [TfL Board Minutes] agendas have included draft business
plans, bus strategic plans, fares policy etc. There is the 2004 Business
Plan which lays out a range of (funding and plan) options including
extending LUL fares to all TOC services within the zonal area so we have
full integration - all for £10m pa.


I really don't like the idea of extending LUL fares to all TOC
services within the zonal area. And I'm confused as to how it would
/cost/ £10m pa. It might /generate/ an extra £10m pa though.

LUL fares are a rip-off. A weekly point-to-point season from my Z2
home station to "London Terminals" is £7.70. Obviously it is not
valid for use on tubes or buses or for any other rail journeys but it
works out very cheap for me. I'd much rather buy that basic ticket
and top-up with cash fares where necessary than spend £19-odd on a Z12
weekly Travelcard. However, the beauty of the current system is that
I can choose to buy the more expensive ticket if it suits my travel
pattern better; I'm not forced to.

But you have to decide before travelling whether you'd be better off
with a rail season, a period Travelcard, or a combination of daily
tickets. I am hoping for (eventually!) a capping system on Oyster which
can work over a period basis e.g. working out at the end of the month
what ticket or tickets would be the best value for you, rather than
having to guess at the beginning of the month what your travel plans
might be.

Mark

--
Mark Etherington

On Sun, 11 Jan 2004 18:53:17 +0000, Mark Etherington wrote:

But you have to decide before travelling whether you'd be better off
with a rail season, a period Travelcard, or a combination of daily
tickets. I am hoping for (eventually!) a capping system on Oyster which
can work over a period basis e.g. working out at the end of the month
what ticket or tickets would be the best value for you, rather than
having to guess at the beginning of the month what your travel plans
might be.

Hmm. I still think there needs to be a radical change to the fares
structure to take account of this kind of thing. The paper fares
structure makes sense on paper; there needs to be something different that
makes sense for smartcard use. Otherwise, you're introducing unnecessary
complication.

Neil