On 29/12/11 21:05, Lüko Willms wrote:
The thing is that railway workers are workers, and not so easily purged
as all the professors at the university and journalists in the media.

And if there is one group who should know about purging, it's apologists
for Stalinism.[1] I bow, Comrade Willms, to your superior knowledge of
such things.

Herr Dr Ian

[1] Soviet railway workers were purged by an NKVD order of 29th July 1937

Neil Williams schrieb:


Please name a single tender in Germany (of many dozen) with that
effect.

I don't know specifics -

Most of the results get published, 2/3 of the former subsidy is a common
result.


but in principle a profit layer is added,

??? The profit margin of DB in subsidized traffic is somewhere in the
15 - 20% range. The profit margin of competitors is considerably lower.
(As soon as the services get tendered, DB offers with a lower margin,
too.)

staff are cut or service is cut.

The lower subsidies have been used for a /considerable/ addition of
train kilometers in Germany.


Hans-Joachim



--

Frieda Uffelmann * 15. August 1915 â€* 9. Dezember 2011

http://zierke.com/private/tante_frie...abgestellt.jpg

On Thu, 29 Dec 2011 04:05:33 -0800 (PST), D1039
wrote:

On Dec 29, 11:30*am, SB wrote:
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 00:21:23 +0100
From: weberwu
Subject: Single point of failure in the Berlin Train System

The Berlin light rail train system, plagued by problems for years,
demonstrated today that it can, indeed get worse. Many cars have been
taken out of service for all sorts of ailments, and having pruned the
maintenance shops and the drivers to a bare minimum, there is no room
for dealing with problems. And there have been problems galore.

Berliners joked that it could not possibly get worse, but today (15
Dec 2011) the S-Bahn proved that it could, indeed, because it has a
single point of failure. All switches, all electronic signals, all
information is centralized in one station in Halensee. And the
electricity went out during a routine test of the emergency electrical
system today, according to RBB [1], a local news station. *The
emergency system did not kick in - and then nothing worked.

Only two train lines that still have analogue signals and switches
were in operation, the rest was out - and the central operations was
also affected. They had no information on where the trains were.

Many people were trapped in trains stranded between stations. *Angry
passengers opened the doors, got out and walked the tracks to the
nearest station, continuing by bus, subway, or taxi.

It took about 3 hours after electricity was restored to have some sort
of traffic running. The Internet information page by the S-Bahn was
down, the server was not able to cope with the traffic. *Customers
used Twitter to announce trains in motion, helping people to find some
way to get to work or school.

[1]http://www.rbb-online.de/nachrichten/vermischtes/2011_12/komplett_aus...

Prof. Dr. Debora Weber-Wulff, HTW Berlin, Treskowallee 8, 10313 Berlin
Tel:
+49-30-5019-2440http://www.f4.htw-berlin.de/people/weberwu/

BlackBerry had a similar outage problem, the backup system worked when
tested but didn't when there was a failure

London Underground managed to have at least two large-scale breakdowns
in the past before they re-arranged their power supplies.

On Thu, 29 Dec 2011 12:31:20 +0000 (UTC), d
wrote:

On 29 Dec 2011 12:16:58 GMT
Hans-Joachim Zierke wrote:
Without the angry passengers, it might have been 1 hour. "Persons on the
tracks" means, that operation can't resume, even with everything back to
normal.

People are not dumb cattle and will not just sit on a train with no
information forever if they can get out and continue their journey on foot.

So not dumb cattle but still a bit thick WRT hazard awareness ?

This has happened in the UK a number of times and train operators need to take
human behaviour into account when failures happen. Just expecting people to
sit and wait for an indeterminate period of time and do nothing is moronic.

B2003

d schrieb:


People are not dumb cattle and will not just sit on a train with no
information forever if they can get out and continue their journey on foot.
This has happened in the UK a number of times and train operators need to take
human behaviour into account when failures happen. Just expecting people to
sit and wait for an indeterminate period of time and do nothing is moronic.


I think that this here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRhNAql6foA
qualifies for "moronic".

Therefore, if the passengers leave the train, interruption of traffic is
the only option available.



Hans-Joachim



--

Frieda Uffelmann * 15. August 1915 â€* 9. Dezember 2011

http://zierke.com/private/tante_frie...abgestellt.jpg

Am 29.12.2011 22:25, schrieb The Real Doctor:
On 29/12/11 21:05, Lüko Willms wrote:
The thing is that railway workers are workers, and not so easily purged
as all the professors at the university and journalists in the media.

And if there is one group who should know about purging, it's apologists
for Stalinism.[1]

Whatever; the purge in the ex-GDR was of a magnitude which exceeded
everything ever experienced under the rule of a stalinist burocrady.

I bow, Comrade Willms, to your superior knowledge of such things.

You have comrades? You make me laugh.

My knowledge is "superior" simply because I stick to the facts and
not to propaganda. That is the contradiction between us.

Herr Dr Ian

[1] Soviet railway workers were purged by an NKVD order of 29th July 1937

Were they? All of them?

Herr Schnell wants to "purge" ALL railway workers in Berlin (at least
those working for the S-Bahn), making them unemployed (which means in
today's Germany to fall quickly into 'Hartz4'). Some of them might be
re-employed, says Herr Schnell, after a new selective process of
recruitment, even for those who have decades of experience in operating
the S-Bahn network.


L.W.

Hans-Joachim Zierke wrote:

Neil Williams schrieb:


Please name a single tender in Germany (of many dozen) with that
effect.

I don't know specifics -

Most of the results get published, 2/3 of the former subsidy is a common
result.

This is valid for the first tendering of a specific line or network, but
unfortunately cannot be redone additionally at the second/third/ ...
tender.

but in principle a profit layer is added,

??? The profit margin of DB in subsidized traffic is somewhere in the
15 - 20% range. The profit margin of competitors is considerably lower.
(As soon as the services get tendered, DB offers with a lower margin,
too.)

staff are cut or service is cut.

The lower subsidies have been used for a /considerable/ addition of
train kilometers in Germany.

What increased passengers figures significantly within the last 15
years.


Oliver Schnell

Am 30.12.2011 07:09, schrieb Lüko Willms:
Herr Schnell wants to "purge" ALL railway workers in Berlin (at least
those working for the S-Bahn), making them unemployed (which means in
today's Germany to fall quickly into 'Hartz4'). Some of them might be
re-employed, says Herr Schnell, after a new selective process of
recruitment, even for those who have decades of experience in operating
the S-Bahn network.


I forgot to mention that, according to Herr Schnells plan, the
workers would be allowed to reapply for their job (at much worse
conditions) only at a completely new company which would not have the
old collective contracts with the trade union and the works council on
the books, so that the workers would be initially stripped of all their
acquisitions which they got over the past decades and which could not be
destroyed by the takeover of the GDR by the separate West state.


Cheers,
L.W.

Am 29.12.2011 22:43, schrieb Hans-Joachim Zierke:
but in principle a profit layer is added,
??? The profit margin of DB in subsidized traffic is somewhere in the
15 - 20% range. The profit margin of competitors is considerably lower.
(As soon as the services get tendered, DB offers with a lower margin,
too.)

Not the profit margin is lower, but the wages are lower and the
working conditions are worse. That is the purpose of the tendering and
privatisation: to drive worker's wages down.

DB and DB's competitors all explain it clear and loud: without
driving down wages, the competition does not work. Wages are the only
real differential.


Cheers,
L.W.

On 30/12/11 06:09, Lüko Willms wrote:
My knowledge is "superior" simply because I stick to the facts and not
to propaganda.

Who says the Germans have no sense of humour?

Ian