On 08/01/2012 14:50, Lüko Willms wrote:
Am 07.01.2012 22:35, schrieb :

West Berlin was technically not a part of the Bundesrepublik,

on the contrary. It was _legally_ not part of the FRG, but in technical
terms it was integrated into the FRG. They used the same currency,
Westberlin was integrated into the FRG telephone network (using the same
international prefix 49), just to name two examples. But they had their
own postal stamps.

Yes, you are correct. I just read about it this evening.

I also read that there was a separate branch of Deutsche Bundespost for
West Berlin, called Deutsche Bundespost Berlin, though it was completely
integrated with the parent company. Their postal code system was the
same as that in the Bundesrepublik as was their telephone network, which
used the country code +49. East Germany used +37.


although its citizens did have West German passports.

No, they had Westberlin ID cards. As said above: Westberlin was
technically integrated in the FRG, but legally a separate political
entity.

Yes, they had ID cards that were particular to West Berlin, and I even
understand that some European countries accepted them as entry documents.

The last word in all matters lay with the occupation powers (to
come back closer to our subject in discussion, it was an officer of the
British occupation troops who ordered the S-Bahn workers strike of 1980
to be ended).

But using a trick, they could also get an FRG passport -- for example, I
signed a sublet form for a Westberlin social-democratic student leader,
so that he could get a secondary address in the West German city I
happened to live back then, and thus an FRG passport. This passport
enabled him to cross the border (the Wall) to the GDR side of Berlin,
which was not allowed for Westberlin citizens (this was in the late
1960ies).



But they would use West German passports to travel further afield, would
they not?

I didn't think that crossing policies into East Berlin for West Berlin
residents would have been so difficult by the late 1960s.

On 08/01/2012 18:42, Wolfgang Schwanke wrote:
Lüko wrote
in :

Am 07.01.2012 22:35, schrieb :

West Berlin was technically not a part of the Bundesrepublik,

on the contrary. It was _legally_ not part of the FRG, but in
technical terms it was integrated into the FRG.

Probably a linguistic issue. "Technically" means just that.

They used the same
currency, Westberlin was integrated into the FRG telephone network
(using the same international prefix 49), just to name two examples.

When dialling from East Germany, you had to use different prefixes for
West Berlin or West Germany, probably just to make a political point.
Likewhise when dialling from West Berlin, prefixes for East Berlin and
East Germany were different, for the same reason.

I didn't think that it would have been very easy to call into West
Berlin from East Berlin, one of the reasons being the lack of available
lines between the two entities.

I would also think that the East German government would not have been
too keen on its citizens ringing West Berlin or West Germany all together.


although its citizens did have West German passports.

No, they had Westberlin ID cards.

Both statements are true. More precisely, the ID cards were "auxiliary
ID cards" who did not state the issuing country. The same "auxiliary"
ID cards used to be issued in East Berlin until the mid-1950s.

But using a trick, they could also get an FRG passport

West Berliners could get an FRG passport without any trick. They were
issued by West Berlin authorities. This passport was acceptable in all
non-Eastern bloc countries.


And in the Eastern bloc countries?

The only difference between such a passport and the one the same person
could acquire from West Berlin authorities was the place of residence
stated. This little detail however caused it to be acceptable for entry
into East Berlin without prior visa application. That's why some people
were keen to get one, and it's the only reason.

This
passport enabled him to cross the border (the Wall) to the GDR side of
Berlin, which was not allowed for Westberlin citizens (this was in the
late 1960ies).

Also true. After 1971 West Berliners could go there, yet the visa
requirements continued to be different. So after this date there
continued to be a small advantage, but it was minor.

What were the stipulations when West Germans or individuals from Western
countries crossed into East Berlin? By this, I mean could they only go
over for the day or could they stay a few days?

It seems to me that visitors coming in were restricted only to East
Berlin and needed a separate visa to move around the country, yes?

On 09/01/2012 17:13, Lüko Willms wrote:
Am 09.01.2012 17:52, schrieb Lüko Willms:
West Berliners could get an FRG passport without any trick. They were
issued by West Berlin authorities. This passport was acceptable in all
non-Eastern bloc countries.

I am quite sure that they could not get an FRG passport from the
Westberlin Senat. The occupation forces were very keen on keeping the
legal separation between Westberlin and the FRG. Even the postal stamps
of Westberlin were different.

The (german language) Wikipedia article on West-Berlin
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/West-Berlin#Besonderheiten
says on this issue:

------- cut ----------------------

Die in West-Berlin ausgestellten Reisepässe dagegen glichen den in
Westdeutschland ausgestellten Pässen und waren mit „Bundesrepublik
Deutschland“ beschriftet. Sie wurden formal nicht von Berliner Behörden,
sondern von einer in Berlin ansässigen Außenstelle des
Bundesinnenministeriums ausgestellt.

--------------- off ---------------

This confirms what I said above: The Westberlin Senate did not issue FRG
passports. WEstberlin citizens did get FRG passports for the Bonn
government, as also Polish citizens did get such passports.

As you might know, the FRG authorities issued FRG-passports for Polish
citizens. They introduced double citizenship in Poland, while refusing
double citizenship by all means for people actually living within the FRG.

There are more interesting remarks about other ID and travel documents
in this Wikipedia article.


Cheers,
L.W.


Under what circumstances would they have allowed Polish citizens to
obtain West German passports and when was that?

I wonder where I can find any information specifically about the East
Berlin U-Bhan, such as its history, operations and development.

Did they also run only the Giselas by the time the Wall came down?

Am 09.01.2012 20:05, schrieb Alistair Gunn:
The most deaths, presumably, are in the Mediterranean Sea.

Those deaths being caused by EU border guards shooting people in the back
as they attempt to engage in "Republikflucht"?

Well, people have to overcome the border in any way. The cause of
their death is the big wall of Fortress Europe.

BTW, did you see this great film about the journey of two youngsters
from Afghanistan to London, where one of them lost his life in a
container on the way? It got a special price a number of years at the
Berlinale film festival. Unfortunately I can't remember the title of the
film.


L.W.

Am 09.01.2012 20:09, schrieb Wolfgang Schwanke:
This confirms what I said above: The Westberlin Senate did not issue
FRG passports. WEstberlin citizens did get FRG passports for the Bonn
government,

I don't know what authority issued the passports.

Yeah. But you made unsubstantiated statements about it.


Cheers,
L.W.

Am 09.01.2012 22:31, schrieb :
Under what circumstances would they have allowed Polish citizens to
obtain West German passports

when those people could claim to be "German" of origin. I think it
was sufficient that they had been listed in the Nazi "Volksliste" or how
that was called. An article in the FRG constition lists some conditions.

and when was that?

I don't know if they stopped it in the first place.

Anyway, this happened in the past two decades.


Cheers,
L.W.

schreef
: What were the stipulations when West Germans or individuals from Western
: countries crossed into East Berlin? By this, I mean could they only go
: over for the day or could they stay a few days?

In 1987 as a UK passport holder I crossed from West Berlin to East Berlin
for a day trip - travelling on the S-Bahn to Friedrichstrasse station - on
the strength of a day visa issued by the GDR authorities at the border
control point in the station.

If I remember correctly, it was also compulsory to exchange a certain sum in
West German marks for East German currency - I forget exactly how much.

Colin Youngs
Brussels

Am 09.01.2012 22:29, schrieb :
What were the stipulations when West Germans or individuals from Western
countries crossed into East Berlin? By this, I mean could they only go
over for the day or could they stay a few days?

It seems to me that visitors coming in were restricted only to East
Berlin and needed a separate visa to move around the country, yes?

Correct.

The simple way was the day pass. One had to go back to the West
before midnight (I once came at the checkpoint half past midnight, and
was gently, but thoroughly searched. The GDR cops showed more respect
than the FRG ones). One had to change 25 DM into DDR-Mark; good for
buying books. Finally I learned that I could also deposit the money not
spent at the GDR national bank (which later was taken over by Deutsche
Bank).

Cheers,
L.W.

Am 09.01.2012 23:11, schrieb Colin Youngs:

If I remember correctly, it was also compulsory to exchange a certain sum in
West German marks for East German currency - I forget exactly how much.

Consider it a consumption voucher as you have to buy in some bars
when entering them. Minimum consumption. But instead of spending it, one
could also deposit at the GDR national bank.


Cheers,
L.W.