Am 10.01.2012 18:38, schrieb Alistair Gunn:

Though I imagine you're far more familiar with SED PR material than I.

As you are with gossip about the Windsor familiy ... Thing is, that I
happen to have lived in Germany all my life. So what?

I notice you also don't see a difference
between countries restricting entry and restricting exit,

Well, this difference is not too big in practical terms. The border
is tight, and passing can be dangerous. See the Wall at the US-Mexican
border, for a change.

was that in a SED PR piece which you lapped up at some point?

???


L.W.

On 10/01/2012 16:58, Alistair Gunn wrote:
In uk.railway Lüko Willms twisted the electrons to say:
Am 09.01.2012 20:05, schrieb Alistair Gunn:
The most deaths, presumably, are in the Mediterranean Sea.
Those deaths being caused by EU border guards shooting people in the back
as they attempt to engage in "Republikflucht"?
Well, people have to overcome the border in any way. The cause of
their death is the big wall of Fortress Europe.

Noone *has* to cross any border ...

BTW, did you see this great film about the journey of two youngsters
from Afghanistan to London, where one of them lost his life in a
container on the way? It got a special price a number of years at the
Berlinale film festival. Unfortunately I can't remember the title of the
film.

Nope, though I'd question whether the UK was the first "safe" country
they reached if I was considering an asylum claim ...

There was an ECJ ruling recently saying Ireland and the UK couldn't send
non-EU people back to Greece, as Greece is not considered safe. Which
surely raises some interesting questions about the EU, if a member state
doesn't meet suitable standards:

google
http://www.independent.ie/national-n...n-2971176.html

--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

On 09/01/2012 22:59, Wolfgang Schwanke wrote:
wrote
in :

I wonder where I can find any information specifically about the East
Berlin U-Bhan, such as its history, operations and development.

There is no such thing as the East Berlin U-Bahn. The U-Bahn, just as
the S-Bahn and tram systems, existed long before the city was divided,
on both would-be sides of teh wall. East Berlin inherited merely two
lines of the previous common system, or more precisely one complete and
one half of a severed line.

You are indeed correct.

I should have said that I would be interested in finding our more
information about the operating part of the U-Bahn that was in East
Berlin when the city was divided. I do not refer to the U-Bahn lines
from West Berlin that traversed East German territory.


I am interested in knowing about its operations, who the operating
authority was and development.

In addition, I hope to find out more about the rolling stock used at
that time.

No "Gisela" trains were small profile stock only suitable to run on the
small profile line U2. U5 is large profile which therefore needs a
different set of rolling stock. Both lines used originally (seperate
sets of) pre-war rolling stock. The G ("Gisela") stock was a 1970s
construction to replace that. Concernint the large profile, they had
difficulties replacing the old stock. For a long time they used
rededicated S-Bahn stock (stock E), in the 1980s they bought disused
stock D trains from West Berlin. All of which are now in Pyongyang.

I read somewhere that Giselas were already pulled from revenue service
in Pyongyang, and that they are now using Dorotas. I wonder if they
continue to use the original Chinese rolling stock in revenue service
anywhere on the system, though I saw pictures of some of them having
been converted for service on the national network. Don't know in what
capacity, however.

Am 11.01.2012 00:57, schrieb :

the U-Bahn that was in East Berlin when the city was divided.

I am interested in knowing about its operations, who the operating
authority was and development.

The U-Bahn was operated by the East Berlin BVB (I think that was
their name, different from BVG in the West), just like the trams and
buses; not different from Westberlin.

I already wrote about the Eastern extension of the now U5 to Hönow.

The now U2 was also extended unto Pankow-Vinetastraße. I can't tell
the former terminal station, since at this moment I can't get access to
my book on the Berlin U-Bahn.


Cheers,
L.W.

Am 11.01.2012 19:41, schrieb Wolfgang Schwanke:
The now U2 was also extended unto Pankow-Vinetastraße.
No that extension was from 1930,


I stand corrected. Sorry...


Cheers,
L.W.

"Lüko Willms" schreef

: Am 10.01.2012 00:01, schrieb Colin Youngs:
: During that day trip, I was twice approached in the street in East
Berlin by
: "agents provocateurs" asking me to exchange DDR-Mark for DM.

: What made you sure that it was an "agent provocateur"?

A man came up to me as I walked along the street soon after leaving Bahnhof
Friedrichstrasse. He said to me (in German) something like "you look as if
you come from the Bundesrepublik". He then asked if I was willing to
change some DM for DDR-Mark.

I speak German and said no, I am British, and that isn't allowed, so he
walked away.

At the end of the day, on my way back to Friedrichstrasse, I was waiting to
cross the road at a street corner where a policeman was directing the
traffic. Another man approached me, again asking if I would change money,
and again I refused.

At the time, I did think the first man was simply an ordinary citizen
wanting to obtain some DM on the black market.

However, I was more than a little suspicious the second time it happened.
It did not seem to me that an "ordinary citizen" would want to engage in a
black market currency transaction in clear view of a policeman only a few
metres way ...

Colin Youngs
Brussels

Am 11.01.2012 22:40, schrieb Colin Youngs:

However, I was more than a little suspicious the second time it happened.
It did not seem to me that an "ordinary citizen" would want to engage in a
black market currency transaction in clear view of a policeman only a few
metres way ...

Maybe, maybe the man approaching you had a better judgement of the
situation, knowing that he would nevertheless be safe.

BTW, I was also once approached by a man who wanted to change money,
but I refused, too.


Cheers,
L.W.

Arthur Figgis wrote:

According to
http://www.berliner-zeitung.de/berli...,11439250.html

a step forward to a tender covering at least a part of the Berlin S-Bahn
network has been done.


Oliver Schnell

For anybody who is interested in seeing some video of the U-Bahn in East
Berlin, it can be viewed here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQOYMKNo5x0

The one thing that confuses me about this is that I noticed Giselas and
much older stock running on the same lines, whereas I thought their
width profiles were much different, requiring them to separately operate.

I also noticed what appeared to be earlier versions of Dorotas,
seemingly at Alexanderplatz.

Lastly, as East Germany was part of the Eastern bloc, why did they not
eventually operate Soviet-built metro cars?

Budpaest, Prague and Warsaw had them for their respective metros, so why
did the East Germans build the Gisela?

On 14/01/2012 23:22, Wolfgang Schwanke wrote:

wrote in :

For anybody who is interested in seeing some video of the U-Bahn in
East Berlin, it can be viewed here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQOYMKNo5x0

The one thing that confuses me about this is that I noticed Giselas
and much older stock running on the same lines, whereas I thought
their width profiles were much different, requiring them to separately
operate.

You're correct that there are two "profiles" (i.e. tunnel widths) in the
Berlin U-Bahn system each with its own set of rolling stock incompatible
with the other. But "Gisela" (stock G) are not the only stock for small
profile. The small profile lines are the oldest in the system and of
course they had a number of models from the beginning. Until 1989 the
eastern half of U2 was operated with a mixture of the old AI, AII and
the then-modern G[isela]. AI being the oldest stock of them all from the
pre-WW1 era, AII from the era between the wars. I'm not sure which one
of those we're seeing in the footage. Anyway, both AI and AII were
phased out in November 1989, coincidentally only a few days before the
fall of the wall. They had already been phased out in West Berlin in the
1960s and early 1970s, respectively. So the footage is really from the
very last months, weeks or even days these types were in regular
operation.

With what did they plan to replace the AIs and AIIs, particularly the
wide-profile ones?

I also noticed what appeared to be earlier versions of Dorotas,
seemingly at Alexanderplatz.

What do you mean by "Dorotas"?

Dorota = D-class U-Bahn trains from West Berlin.

The rolling stock we see on U5 is type
EIII, i.e. reconstructed S-Bahn carriages of some of the pre-war series.
EIII is of course large profile. East Berlin's large profile material
from pre-WW2 stock was ageing (BII and BIII mostly I guess), and they
had no capacities to construct a new model, so this makeshift solution
was introduced and was the only material to be seen on U5 for many
years, until some "modern" West Berlin D stock was bought to fill the
gap in the late 1980s.

Were there any physical connections between the eastern and western
parts of the U-Bahn when the city was divided? I don't mean parts West
Berlin U-Bahn trains simply traversed East Berlin on their way somewhere
else, but where trains from West Berlin could exit onto East Berlin
territory.

I ask, because I noticed that some tracks simply stopped short of the
border, literally cut, when I visited Berlin in 1999,

Was much homologation required when BVB acquired the rail cars from BVG?

Lastly, as East Germany was part of the Eastern bloc, why did they not
eventually operate Soviet-built metro cars?

Dunno, perhaps compatibility issues.

Maybe, yes, as the Berlin U-Bahn existed before any Soviet metro opened,
so certain specs that differed had to be maintained.

It's interesting that Berlin U-Bahn trains were able to operate on the
Pyongyang Metro, however, for I would have though that the North Koreans
would have built their system more to Soviet specs, assuming that they
differed

BTW, was there ever any talk about the existence of secret U-Bahn lines
in East Berlin, the kind of which purportedly exist in Moscow, Pyongyang
or even Bucharest?