On 22/01/2012 21:52, Stephen Sprunk wrote:
On 22-Jan-12 09:23, Roland Perry wrote:
In , at 09:08:00 on Sun, 22 Jan
2012, Stephen remarked:
Many US retailers push for card use because they believe the labor and
fraud costs of handling cash are higher.

Do you mean the risk of counterfeit banknotes? This is something that
seems to have been overcome in the UK one way or another.

That's a risk in some countries, and even in the US many merchants won't
accept bills larger than $20 (though the risk is obviously the same
whether someone counterfeits a $100 bill or five $20 bills), but that's
not the real problem. Modern currency is very difficult to counterfeit
well enough to pass even a cursory examination.

Most people in the Eurozone are reluctant to accept 50-euro notes. I
think that they were even planning to pull the 500-euro note.

There's also the time it takes to count the customer's money and, if
applicable, make change. This is particularly bad in the US since taxes
are not included in the price, so the total due is rarely known before
the order is rung up.

Why is that, I wonder? I think that is also the case with the GST and
PST in Canada.

Here in many (if not all) parts of Europe, the price that you pay for
something already has relevant taxes figured in.

On 22-Jan-12 16:14, wrote:
On 22/01/2012 21:52, Stephen Sprunk wrote:
There's also the time it takes to count the customer's money and, if
applicable, make change. This is particularly bad in the US since taxes
are not included in the price, so the total due is rarely known before
the order is rung up.

Why is that, I wonder?

I have many theories, but I suspect it probably comes down to some
obscure quirk of law that no politician is interested in fixing.

Regardless of cause, the simple matter is that the vast majority of
customers do not know the amount due until the cashier rings up their
entire order. Then, either the cashier has to wait while the customer
counts out the exact amount, or the customer has to wait while the
cashier counts out the change. Either way, all the _other_ customers in
line must wait. This is a non-trivial problem for retailers.

For instance, four items are priced $1.99, $2.99, $3.99 and $4.99. Most
people can, with a little difficult, figure out the subtotal is $13.96.
Without assistance, though, few people can multiply that by a tax rate
of 8.25%* to calculate the tax due of $1.15, for a total of $15.11.
Worse, some** items are tax-exempt, so the total could be any of $13.96,
$14.12, $14.21, $14.29, $14.37, $14.45, $14.54, $14.62, $14.70, $14.78,
$14.87, $14.95 or $15.11. Yikes!

Contrast this with using a payment card: the customer simply swipes
their card, signs a slip or enters their PIN (if above the merchant's
floor), and departs with their purchases.

(* What it happens to be where I live; it varies widely by location.
** What items are tax-exempt may not be obvious and varies by location.)

Here in many (if not all) parts of Europe, the price that you pay for
something already has relevant taxes figured in.

That way seems more logical. It's certainly more efficient.

S

--
Stephen Sprunk "God does not play dice." --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723 "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking

Stephen Sprunk writes:
Here in many (if not all) parts of Europe, the price that you pay for
something already has relevant taxes figured in.

That way seems more logical. It's certainly more efficient.

.... and in my experience it makes for a lot more peace-of-mind when
shopping. Even though one _can_ just mentally add on the tax rate
when looking at an item, there's something really comforting about
knowing that the price shown on the tag is actually the exact amount
of money you'll have to fork over.

This is especially true for high-priced items (where the difference
isn't trivial), but it's also is really nice for _low_ priced items,
where you can actually look at the amount of money you have in your
hand, and be completely sure you'll have enough...

[I suppose one reason U.S. retail businesses would vehemently object
to a VAT or "more honest labelling" regulations, is that the
"perceived price" of their goods would go up, even if the amount paid
by customers stayed the same...]

-Miles

--
Selfish, adj. Devoid of consideration for the selfishness of others.

On 22-Jan-12 18:39, Miles Bader wrote:
Stephen Sprunk writes:
Here in many (if not all) parts of Europe, the price that you pay for
something already has relevant taxes figured in.

That way seems more logical. It's certainly more efficient.

... and in my experience it makes for a lot more peace-of-mind when
shopping. Even though one _can_ just mentally add on the tax rate
when looking at an item,

Good luck with that, unless the item's price and tax rate together only
have two or three significant digits. That's rare in my experience; for
instance, I might see something priced at $39.95 with a tax rate of
8.25%, for a total of seven significant digits. While some people may
be able to figure out the after-tax price in their heads, few would
bother with the effort, and most can't do it at all.

there's something really comforting about knowing that the price
shown on the tag is actually the exact amount of money you'll have to
fork over.

Indeed. On my first trip overseas, that was one of the most welcome
aspects of shopping: you know exactly what you're going to pay. This
also encourages round-number pricing ($40 vs $39.95)--something that is
pointless under a pre-tax pricing model.

This is especially true for high-priced items (where the difference
isn't trivial), but it's also is really nice for _low_ priced items,
where you can actually look at the amount of money you have in your
hand, and be completely sure you'll have enough...

Yep, and I vaguely remember learning that lesson as a kid: a dollar
can't buy things in a store priced $0.99. That's just plain stupid.

[I suppose one reason U.S. retail businesses would vehemently object
to a VAT or "more honest labelling" regulations, is that the
"perceived price" of their goods would go up, even if the amount paid
by customers stayed the same...]

That's really only applies to one merchant doing it voluntarily; if they
were all forced to do it, all posted prices would rise slightly and
everyone would adjust with minimal complaint since the actual prices
paid wouldn't change.

A bigger problem is the variation in tax rates. When a merchant
advertises a price of $10 today, they get $10 everywhere; if the tax
were included, the net amount would vary between locations. With sales
tax rates ranging from 0% to 12%, and many merchants' margins often
being less than that, that would cause serious problems.

S

--
Stephen Sprunk "God does not play dice." --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723 "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking

"Colin Youngs" wrote:

I would be very surprised to hear of any European country where retail
prices for non-trade customers are quoted net of tax. I can't claim
knowledge of every part of the world, but I thought this was a peculiarly
North American practice, more or less unknown elsewhere.

That's because VAT is standard across a country. In the US there are thousands
of taxing districts in every state, each with it's own adder to the base rate.

I would be very surprised to hear of any European country where retail
prices for non-trade customers are quoted net of tax. ...

That's because VAT is standard across a country. In the US there are thousands
of taxing districts in every state, each with it's own adder to the base rate.

That's not really the case. Some states have lots of tax districts,
e.g. here in New York where every county and many cities set their
own sales tax rate. But some states like Vermont have a single rate
for the whole state, and some like New Hampshire and Delaware have no
sales tax at all. For prices in stores, everything in the store is taxed
at the same rate, but those prices are quoted net of tax, too.

My understanding is that most prices in the US are quoted net of tax
for purely political reasons, that the tax sceptics in the legislature
want everyone to be aware of what the tax rate is, and how much the
state is collecting.

We will leave as an exercise for the student why prices for gasoline
are invariably quoted gross, with all taxes included.

R's,
John

On Sun, 22 Jan 2012 19:14:58 -0700, Robert Neville
wrote:
That's because VAT is standard across a country. In the US there
are thousands
of taxing districts in every state, each with it's own adder to the
base rate.

Presumably only one applies to any given shop?

Neil

--
Neil Williams, Milton Keynes, UK

On 22-Jan-12 20:51, John Levine wrote:
I would be very surprised to hear of any European country where retail
prices for non-trade customers are quoted net of tax. ...

That's because VAT is standard across a country. In the US there are thousands
of taxing districts in every state, each with it's own adder to the base rate.

That's not really the case. Some states have lots of tax districts,
e.g. here in New York where every county and many cities set their
own sales tax rate. But some states like Vermont have a single rate
for the whole state, and some like New Hampshire and Delaware have no
sales tax at all. For prices in stores, everything in the store is taxed
at the same rate, but those prices are quoted net of tax, too.

Not true; some items are fully or partially tax-exempt, so the rate can
vary even within a single store. For instance, my state taxes prepared
food but not unprepared food, which are both found in grocery stores,
and automobiles are exempt from local tax but not state tax, while other
items sold at car dealerships are not exempt from either.

Many states claim that residents of their state have to pay sales tax on
products shipped by a seller in another state, whereas AFAIK no state
taxes products shipped to a buyer another state. If the seller is in
the same state as the buyer, the buyer's rate applies to shipped orders,
not the seller's rate.

And then there's Congress's Internet sales tax moratorium, so the same
product ordered by the same buyer from the same seller may by taxed if
the order was by phone or mail but not if online.

Also, some buyers do not have to pay sales tax at all, and some buyers
can have their sales tax refunded.

My understanding is that most prices in the US are quoted net of tax
for purely political reasons, that the tax sceptics in the legislature
want everyone to be aware of what the tax rate is, and how much the
state is collecting.

That's one theory.

We will leave as an exercise for the student why prices for gasoline
are invariably quoted gross, with all taxes included.

Excise taxes, eg. on motor fuels, are usually included in the price, but
sales taxes are not. Most states exempt products from sales tax if
subject to a specific excise tax, but some don't.

In short, it's a complete mess.

S

--
Stephen Sprunk "God does not play dice." --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723 "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking

On 22-Jan-12 20:51, John Levine wrote:
I would be very surprised to hear of any European country where retail
prices for non-trade customers are quoted net of tax. ...

That's because VAT is standard across a country. In the US there are thousands
of taxing districts in every state, each with it's own adder to the base rate.

That's not really the case. Some states have lots of tax districts,
e.g. here in New York where every county and many cities set their
own sales tax rate. But some states like Vermont have a single rate
for the whole state, and some like New Hampshire and Delaware have no
sales tax at all. For prices in stores, everything in the store is taxed
at the same rate, but those prices are quoted net of tax, too.

Not true; some items are fully or partially tax-exempt, so the rate can
vary even within a single store. For instance, my state taxes prepared
food but not unprepared food, which are both found in grocery stores,
and automobiles are exempt from local tax but not state tax, while other
items sold at car dealerships are not exempt from either.

Many states claim that residents of their state have to pay sales tax on
products shipped by a seller in another state, whereas AFAIK no state
taxes products shipped to a buyer another state. If the seller is in
the same state as the buyer, the buyer's rate applies to shipped orders,
not the seller's rate.

And then there's Congress's Internet sales tax moratorium, so the same
product ordered by the same buyer from the same seller may by taxed if
the order was by phone or mail but not if online.

Also, some buyers do not have to pay sales tax at all, and some buyers
can have their sales tax refunded.

My understanding is that most prices in the US are quoted net of tax
for purely political reasons, that the tax sceptics in the legislature
want everyone to be aware of what the tax rate is, and how much the
state is collecting.

That's one theory.

We will leave as an exercise for the student why prices for gasoline
are invariably quoted gross, with all taxes included.

Excise taxes, eg. on motor fuels, are usually included in the price, but
sales taxes are not. Most states exempt products from sales tax if
subject to a specific excise tax, but some don't.

In short, it's a complete mess.

S

--
Stephen Sprunk "God does not play dice." --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723 "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking

On Sun, 22 Jan 2012 21:43:56 +0000, Neil Williams
wrote:

On Sun, 22 Jan 2012 19:16:38 +0000, Charles Ellson
wrote:
driving when not using their own vehicle. My own insurance used to
cover driving other vehicles (but not for damage to that other
vehicle) but that feature was dropped about 15-20y ago.

Mine still does.

Interesting. I have just had to dig out my insurance document to renew
the round thing displayed in the windscreen and I am again covered
for driving "a private motor car not owned by the Policyholder and not
hired" etc.; it was previously just for my own vehicle or any
substitute during repairs. Perhaps they put it back when they stopped
insuring me without limit (its now only 20M UKP) a few years back ?