On 25/02/2012 14:13, wrote:
On 24/02/2012 23:00, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
Stephen wrote:

Swiping a card is faster--much faster if the transaction total is under
the merchant's "floor", i.e. doesn't require a signature/PIN.

I have no idea if a PIN would be required if you swiped it at a
US retail terminal.

No, UK credit cards also have a magnetic stripe on the back, so they can
be swiped through a US retail terminal. You just have to sign on the
transaction, rather than use your PIN.

Only if, as above, the transaction is above the merchant's floor limit.
When using my UK credit card in the US I only needed to sign for some
transactions.

The occasional machine, e.g. at gas stations, wanted to know my home
zip code (which, of course, I don't have) but I was able to pay in
the kiosk. (US gas stations need payment before dispensing fuel,
rather than afterwards, as in the UK.)


--
Graham Nye
news(a)thenyes.org.uk

wrote:
On 24/02/2012 23:00, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
wrote:
On 24/02/2012 21:20, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
Stephen wrote:
On 24-Feb-12 09:01, d wrote:
On Fri, 24 Feb 2012 07:13:13 -0700 Robert wrote:
wrote:

He must be one of those bloody annoying people who insist on paying
for a 2.50 sandwich with a credit card and causing a huge queue of
****ed off hungry customers behind him.

That may have been true 10 years ago. Current terminals handle credit
card transactions far faster than cash and in most cases, don't even
require a signature if the value is under a certain threshold.

Hand cash over - walk out. If you can do that faster with a credit
card then I'd be interesting in hearing your technique.

In the US (and Canada, IIRC), sales tax is not included in the posted
price, so a customer doesn't know how much cash to hand over until the
total is computed by the cash register. Then, either the customer has
to count out the correct payment or the cashier has to count out the
correct change for a large bill.

Swiping a card is faster--much faster if the transaction total is under
the merchant's "floor", i.e. doesn't require a signature/PIN.

What credit card transaction requires a PIN? Those are strictly for
debit card transactions.

I regularly used my PIN on credit card transactions here in London.

I have no idea if a PIN would be required if you swiped it at a
US retail terminal.

No, UK credit cards also have a magnetic stripe on the back, so they can
be swiped through a US retail terminal. You just have to sign on the
transaction, rather than use your PIN.

That's interesting. In the UK, do you use the PIN both when swiping and
using it as a proximity card?

In message , at 15:48:40 on Sat, 25
Feb 2012, Graham Nye remarked:
No, UK credit cards also have a magnetic stripe on the back, so they can
be swiped through a US retail terminal. You just have to sign on the
transaction, rather than use your PIN.

Only if, as above, the transaction is above the merchant's floor limit.
When using my UK credit card in the US I only needed to sign for some
transactions.

There's some over-simplification here. While I agree that some retailers
(especially high-margin ones like restaurants) may not require a
signature, there's a second floor limit above which they have to call
the credit card company. That limit seems to me to be much lower than
you'd get in the UK for a similar transaction verified by PIN.

The occasional machine, e.g. at gas stations, wanted to know my home
zip code (which, of course, I don't have) but I was able to pay in
the kiosk. (US gas stations need payment before dispensing fuel,
rather than afterwards, as in the UK.)

There's some over-generalisation here, it depends where you are in the
USA; some places need payment first, others don't. It depends a little
on the local demographic.
--
Roland Perry

On 25/02/2012 16:06, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
wrote:
On 24/02/2012 23:00, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
wrote:
On 24/02/2012 21:20, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
Stephen wrote:
On 24-Feb-12 09:01, d wrote:
On Fri, 24 Feb 2012 07:13:13 -0700 Robert wrote:
d wrote:

He must be one of those bloody annoying people who insist on paying
for a 2.50 sandwich with a credit card and causing a huge queue of
****ed off hungry customers behind him.

That may have been true 10 years ago. Current terminals handle credit
card transactions far faster than cash and in most cases, don't even
require a signature if the value is under a certain threshold.

Hand cash over - walk out. If you can do that faster with a credit
card then I'd be interesting in hearing your technique.

In the US (and Canada, IIRC), sales tax is not included in the posted
price, so a customer doesn't know how much cash to hand over until the
total is computed by the cash register. Then, either the customer has
to count out the correct payment or the cashier has to count out the
correct change for a large bill.

Swiping a card is faster--much faster if the transaction total is under
the merchant's "floor", i.e. doesn't require a signature/PIN.

What credit card transaction requires a PIN? Those are strictly for
debit card transactions.

I regularly used my PIN on credit card transactions here in London.

I have no idea if a PIN would be required if you swiped it at a
US retail terminal.

No, UK credit cards also have a magnetic stripe on the back, so they can
be swiped through a US retail terminal. You just have to sign on the
transaction, rather than use your PIN.

That's interesting. In the UK, do you use the PIN both when swiping and
using it as a proximity card?

UK credit cards and proximity cards are different things.

No, I do not have to use the PIN when swiping it. Most likely, I then
will just have to sign for something.

BTW, some years back when I visited the Newark City Subway, now known as
Newark Light Rail, I used my credit card to purchase tickets. My credit
card did not have a chip and no signing was required to complete the
transaction.

My bank does not (yet) have proximity cards, so I would not think so.
But I strongly doubt that anything is required since there purpose is to
speed along sales. Plus, as I read here, transactions are limited to but
a few dollars/pounds at most, depending on where you are.

A friend of mine in New York City has a proximity card and he used it
to enter the Subway at Grand Central - 42nd Street. IIRC, it was a pilot
programme. Is that option still there or at other stations on that system?

In message , at 16:06:24 on Sat, 25 Feb
2012, Adam H. Kerman remarked:
No, UK credit cards also have a magnetic stripe on the back, so they can
be swiped through a US retail terminal. You just have to sign on the
transaction, rather than use your PIN.

That's interesting. In the UK, do you use the PIN both when swiping

Almost no-one swipes cards any more, they are fitted into a chip reader.

In both cases you'd need a PIN, unless it's one of those intangible
purchases like a parking garage, where they seem to have decided that
the cost of doing PIN verification is greater than the potential fraud
from skimmed cards (and the product has a zero marginal costs anyway).

and using it as a proximity card?

I'm told about 1:10 proximity card transactions require a PIN. Whether
it's random, or by profiling the retailer/customer, I doubt is in the
public domain.
--
Roland Perry

Graham Nye wrote:
On 25/02/2012 14:13, wrote:
On 24/02/2012 23:00, Adam H. Kerman wrote:

I have no idea if a PIN would be required if you swiped [a UK-based
credit card] at a US retail terminal.

No, UK credit cards also have a magnetic stripe on the back, so they can
be swiped through a US retail terminal. You just have to sign on the
transaction, rather than use your PIN.

Only if, as above, the transaction is above the merchant's floor limit.
When using my UK credit card in the US I only needed to sign for some
transactions.

That depends on the merchant's policy.

The occasional machine, e.g. at gas stations, wanted to know my home
zip code (which, of course, I don't have) but I was able to pay in
the kiosk. (US gas stations need payment before dispensing fuel,
rather than afterwards, as in the UK.)

Depending on a merchant's policy, forcing a purchaser to enter a
bit of identifying information, like the ZIP Code, isn't much
security. If one's wallet has been stolen, there's likely to be
something in it with the ZIP Code on it.

With regard to paying before versus paying after to dispense fuel,
that's up to the merchant. If the gas station is on a main highway
and the merchant assumes that most drivers filling up will be coming
from elsewhere, the policy will likely be pay ahead. If the merchant
assumes that most of his business will be from people who live close
by, with plenty of repeat business, he'll allow pay after.

The thing is that the merchant really wants to the driver to enter
the store to buy food or coffee or cigarettes, which are very high
markup items.

At times, merchants make nominal profits on gasoline. I don't know how
fuel prices are set at retail in the UK, but in the US, the refinery
effectively sets the price, not the merchant. A fuel truck will supply
numerous gas stations on its route, each paying a different wholesale
price for fuel. Refiners use a complicated pricing model based on income
of nearby residents and assumptions about local traffic versus long
distance traffic at the pumps. Generally, if the area near the gas
station is middle class instead of upper middle class, fuel prices
will be lower.

Also, fuel sold to the merchant is measured crudely (no pun intended).
The fuel truck driver takes a dipstick to measure the height of the fuel
in the underground storage tank. It doesn't appear to rely on gauges
on the truck itself.

In message , at 16:22:09 on Sat, 25
Feb 2012, " remarked:

UK credit cards and proximity cards are different things.

They are "converging things". I don't know of any post-payment proximity
cards that aren't also conventional credit cards. But only a few
conventional credit cards have the proximity technology.
--
Roland Perry

Neil Williams wrote:
On Fri, 24 Feb 2012 15:01:19 +0000 (UTC), d wrote:

Hand cash over - walk out. If you can do that faster with a credit
card then I'd be interesting in hearing your technique.

You *always* have correct change?

I try to have my pennies ready, at least. With today's metal prices,
they cost the federal government more to mint than their face
value, so I do my part to keep them circulating. But plenty of
merchants tell their cashiers to leave out pennies on the counter or
accept whatever pennies are offered, even if one or two short.

Roland Perry wrote:
at 15:48:40 on Sat, 25 Feb 2012, Graham Nye remarked:

No, UK credit cards also have a magnetic stripe on the back, so they can
be swiped through a US retail terminal. You just have to sign on the
transaction, rather than use your PIN.

Only if, as above, the transaction is above the merchant's floor limit.
When using my UK credit card in the US I only needed to sign for some
transactions.

There's some over-simplification here. While I agree that some retailers
(especially high-margin ones like restaurants) may not require a
signature, there's a second floor limit above which they have to call
the credit card company. That limit seems to me to be much lower than
you'd get in the UK for a similar transaction verified by PIN.

Really? There's no concept of pre-authorizing the transaction, then
charging the customer the approved charge in two separate steps, both
performed at the retail terminal?

Jewelry stores don't call the credit card processor or bank if nothing
appears to be amiss. It's handled electronically.

The occasional machine, e.g. at gas stations, wanted to know my home
zip code (which, of course, I don't have) but I was able to pay in
the kiosk. (US gas stations need payment before dispensing fuel,
rather than afterwards, as in the UK.)

There's some over-generalisation here, it depends where you are in the
USA; some places need payment first, others don't. It depends a little
on the local demographic.

Actually, two gas stations at the same intersection can have different
policies.

In message , at 16:40:17 on Sat, 25 Feb
2012, Adam H. Kerman remarked:

No, UK credit cards also have a magnetic stripe on the back, so they can
be swiped through a US retail terminal. You just have to sign on the
transaction, rather than use your PIN.

Only if, as above, the transaction is above the merchant's floor limit.
When using my UK credit card in the US I only needed to sign for some
transactions.

There's some over-simplification here. While I agree that some retailers
(especially high-margin ones like restaurants) may not require a
signature, there's a second floor limit above which they have to call
the credit card company. That limit seems to me to be much lower than
you'd get in the UK for a similar transaction verified by PIN.

Really? There's no concept of pre-authorizing the transaction, then
charging the customer the approved charge in two separate steps, both
performed at the retail terminal?

No. I routinely spend amounts of the order of a thousand dollars at
retailers by Chip and PIN card, and it's a one-shot process.

The only time I've had a hiccup in the last few years was spending a
paltry $300 in a store in the USA, when they called the credit card
company, checked my ID, and then my CCC *still* phoned me in (what was
in USA) the middle of the night to ask if I recognised the transaction.

Jewelry stores don't call the credit card processor or bank if nothing
appears to be amiss. It's handled electronically.

The mechanism is that their terminal asks them to call, if the
transaction is flagged.

The occasional machine, e.g. at gas stations, wanted to know my home
zip code (which, of course, I don't have) but I was able to pay in
the kiosk. (US gas stations need payment before dispensing fuel,
rather than afterwards, as in the UK.)

There's some over-generalisation here, it depends where you are in the
USA; some places need payment first, others don't. It depends a little
on the local demographic.

Actually, two gas stations at the same intersection can have different
policies.

So it also depends a little on the retailer's internal policy (and also
their previous record for accepting fraudulent transactions, which might
in turn depend on their staff training programme), but common sense
tells us that already.
--
Roland Perry