John Levine wrote:

UK credit card statements (including Amex) don't usually have
transaction numbers.

Ok. I bet the transactions are numbered, though.

You lose. What do we win?

Good thing you can always be counted on to provide a citation to
back up your criticisms. Way to prove your point with hard information.

Doncha love Usenet?

UK credit card statements (including Amex) don't usually have
transaction numbers.

Ok. I bet the transactions are numbered, though.

You lose. What do we win?

Good thing you can always be counted on to provide a citation to
back up your criticisms. Way to prove your point with hard information.

I have a binder full of UK Master Card and UK Amex statements, none of
which number the transactions.

So what did we win?

R's,
John
--
Regards,
John Levine, , Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. http://jl.ly

In message , at 17:39:57 on Sun, 26 Feb
2012, Stephen Sprunk remarked:
If the charge isn't paid, the merchant isn't paid.

Wrong. If the charge is accepted by the issuing bank, the merchant gets
paid by their processor, period.

What if there's a later chargeback?

Chargebacks are debited from the merchant's account with the card
processor. If the merchant's account is closed with a negative balance
(eg. due to excessive chargebacks), the debt is collected through the
usual channels.

Note that failure of the consumer to pay their credit card bill does
_not_ result in a chargeback, contrary to Adam's ridiculous claims.

Indeed, as long as the failure to pay was "because I have no money",
rather than "because I dispute the charge".
--
Roland Perry

In message e.net, at
21:53:47 on Sun, 26 Feb 2012, Mark Goodge
remarked:
Cards that only work in ATMs are almost unknown in the UK. They are
usually general purpose debit cards too (and you can get cash advances
on credit cards).

You can get them on some savings accounts, in order to be able to withdraw
cash but not make payments. I've got one that works like that, although I
rarely use it.

Same here, that's why I know they exist, and hence are "almost" unknown
rather than "completely" unknown.

Of course, back in the day there really were ATN-only cards, I had one
from the Halifax for example. Also the NatWest Servicetill card wasn't
also a debit card until they invented Switch and added it to the card.
Recently, they've been phasing them out and migrating customers to VISA
Debit, now that the "Cheque Guarantee" element of the previous card is
obsolete.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 00:10:08 on Mon, 27 Feb
2012, John Levine remarked:
In Canada, where the restaurant culture is pretty much the same as in
the U.S., now that they have chip+pin, when you pay, they bring the
terminal to you and let you enter the tip before you enter the PIN.
It doesn't seem to have been a big deal.

I don't see why US restaurants would object, particularly since they'll
likely get fewer chargebacks with customer entered PINs and less opportunity
for staff to accidentally or deliberately mis-enter the tip.

There's still a way for waiters to 'game' the system. If they hand the
terminal to the customer after themselves entering a zero tip, the
customer is "forced" to leave a cash tip (or query the lack of tip,
which hardly ever seems to happen).
--
Roland Perry

In message
, at
19:17:17 on Sun, 26 Feb 2012, remarked:
I was under the impression that merchant agreements in the USA did not
allow them to ask for ID. How they resolve flagged transactions, if
that's the case, isn't my problem.

US merchants sometimes ask for separate ID, usually a driver's
license. It appears they do for large transactions or for merchants
who deal with many strangers (eg a tourist area).

I have no idea of what the law or bank policy is on that.

See the Apple story I linked to yesterday for one view on that.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 17:57:28 on Sun, 26 Feb
2012, Stephen Sprunk remarked:
I did think about trying a different card.

It probably wouldn't have helped, unless the transaction was flagged by
the issuing bank rather than the card processor.

It must be flagged by the bank, because banks are the people you are
supposed to tell when you go abroad. I doubt they in turn pre-emptively
inform every card processor in the part of the world you are travelling to.

The card processor would know the identity and nationality of the
issuing bank, though, and may have flagged the transaction themselves.

It's impossible to rule out, from the information available, but it
doesn't appear to be the normal practice.

And yet I can routinely buy things (expensive as well as cheap) in the
UK from electrical retailers, without any referral to the card company.

I don't get a "referral" to my bank at US retailers; however, they do
ask for photo ID, match it to the name on the card, closely scrutinize
my signature and compare it to _both_ my credit card and ID, and get an
imprint of the credit card--despite swiping it, which makes an imprint
unnecessary at other merchants.

It would be a "referral" if they were instructed to do that by the card
company on a transaction by transaction basis.

I'm not aware of such steps being done on a per-transaction basis, eg.
depending on the card number or payment amount.

It happens all the time.

Would they really do all that if you were buying was a $5 pack of AA
batteries?

In theory, yes; those merchants are required by their card processor to
take those steps for _all_ card transactions, and being discovered not
doing so could cause their fees to rise or their merchant account to be
closed. They'd rather annoy customers and potentially lose that one $5
sale than lose all their (much larger) card sales, which would likely
result in bankruptcy.

Perhaps they have a self-imposed floor limit, below which they'll take
the risk.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 00:13:19 on Mon, 27 Feb
2012, John Levine remarked:
It's the only place in the US I've bought gas at an unattended pump.
At places open to the public, fire regulations seem to require that
there be an attendant who can set off the fire suppression system.

It's becoming quite commonplace for "24hr"[1] Supermarkets to have
unmanned gas pumps overnight, they leave just the self-service facility
running. These gas stations have enhanced fire precautions.

[1] Because of Sunday Trading laws the shop part is only truly 24hr on
Tuesday thru Saturday. They'll be closed Midnight Saturday to 10am
Sunday, and 4pm Sunday to usually 6am Monday (although they could
re-open at midnight, few do).
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 20:03:27 on Sun, 26 Feb
2012, Stephen Sprunk remarked:
Considering that the convenience store is where fueling stations really
make their profits, though, unattended operation doesn't seem to make a
lot of sense from their perspective.

It helps with brand loyalty, and assists in keeping competitors out of
the local market.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 22:32:27 on
Sun, 26 Feb 2012, Charles Ellson remarked:
On Sun, 26 Feb 2012 10:46:48 +0000, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 00:33:53 on
Sun, 26 Feb 2012, Charles Ellson remarked:
http://conversation.which.co.uk/mone...tactless-card/
refers to a PIN being used for any transaction over 15 UKP or any
taking the running daily total over 50 UKP.

The £50 limit is mentioned in a blog comment, I think I'd like to see
the words coming from a bank.

£50 sounds a lot like "the average amount you'll run up before meeting a
random PIN check". Do any of the banks publish the algorithm?

Barclays themselves seem to present it as a random check but various
reports/reviews/etc. by third parties on an assortment of dates imply
a 50 UKP cumulative "trigger" which presumably does not need all
following transactions on the same day to be PINned unless they also
trigger any warning signs typical of fraudulent activity.

Does the card accumulate a daily total to police this £50 limit? I
hadn't heard that.

"For example, a pre-set limit for Visa payWave transactions will be
set by the card issuer. This limit is automatically reset each time a
standard chip and PIN transaction is conducted. If this pre-set limit
is ever exceeded, the Visa payWave terminal will automatically ask for
a chip and PIN transaction to be conducted."
[http://www.visaeurope.com/en/cardhol...ave/faqs.aspx]

It doesn't say that it's a *daily* limit (or indeed that it accumulates
steadily), although the talk of resetting the limit suggests it's most
likely the latter. On the other hand the expression "is ever exceeded"
suggests they don't expect it to happen routinely. Which could indicate
that they expect the resetting to happen relatively frequently as a
result of non-paywave transactions.

That FAQ is a masterpiece of misdirection. eg:

"Will my statement show which payments were made using Visa payWave?

"All transactions will appear on the card statement like any other
transaction made on the same Visa credit or debit card."

Which doesn't answer the real question: "can I tell which were paywave
and which weren't".

That does not directly match Barclays's version but does seem to imply
that the card "knows" what limit it was last advised. Not being able
to balance that against following waved transactions would seem to be
a major opportunity to make a series of small transactions before it
became necessary or possible to "phone home" again. Unless there is a
mobile 'phone connection (or an offline CandP enabled terminal ?) this
presumably means you are stuffed if you pass your limit trying to pay
on a train or bus.

If the paywave terminals don't have a PIN pad (and for example the ones
they might fit to London underground gates probably wouldn't) then
they'll have to have a "plan B".
--
Roland Perry