"Adam H. Kerman" wrote in
:

I have no idea if a PIN would be required if you swiped it at a
US retail terminal.

Not usually - they either require a signature (which in my experience they
rarely check against the one on the card), or commonly nothing at all up to
around USD 25.

However, I was in the US last week, presented my UK credit card in a
restaurant and the cashier was mystified by the message that came up on his
terminal: 'Use chip reader'. He claimed not to have a chip reader, and so
far as I could see he was right. We tried another card with the same
result, and in the end I paid cash.

Peter

--
|| Peter CS ~ Epsom ~ UK | pjcs02 [at] gmail.com |

Graham Nye wrote in
:

The occasional machine, e.g. at gas stations, wanted to know my home
zip code (which, of course, I don't have) but I was able to pay in
the kiosk. (US gas stations need payment before dispensing fuel,
rather than afterwards, as in the UK.)

I've found that 11111 sometimes works, but not always.

Peter

--
|| Peter CS ~ Epsom ~ UK | pjcs02 [at] gmail.com |

Roland Perry wrote:
at 17:39:57 on Sun, 26 Feb 2012, Stephen Sprunk remarked:

If the charge isn't paid, the merchant isn't paid.

Wrong. If the charge is accepted by the issuing bank, the merchant gets
paid by their processor, period.

What if there's a later chargeback?

Chargebacks are debited from the merchant's account with the card
processor. If the merchant's account is closed with a negative balance
(eg. due to excessive chargebacks), the debt is collected through the
usual channels.

Note that failure of the consumer to pay their credit card bill does
_not_ result in a chargeback, contrary to Adam's ridiculous claims.

Indeed, as long as the failure to pay was "because I have no money",
rather than "because I dispute the charge".

As long as the charge was authorized by the clearinghouse!

This is the bit Stephen Sprunk is pretending to misunderstand to continue
arguing.

John Levine wrote:

UK credit card statements (including Amex) don't usually have
transaction numbers.

Ok. I bet the transactions are numbered, though.

You lose. What do we win?

Good thing you can always be counted on to provide a citation to
back up your criticisms. Way to prove your point with hard information.

I have a binder full of UK Master Card and UK Amex statements, none of
which number the transactions.

How does that prove that the transaction ID number doesn't exist, just
because it's not printed on your statement? These numbers print on the
charge slip at times, depending on how the merchant sets things up.

So what did we win?

Why do you speak of yourself in plural?

On 27-Feb-12 02:15, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 17:39:57 on Sun, 26 Feb
2012, Stephen Sprunk remarked:
If the charge isn't paid, the merchant isn't paid.

Wrong. If the charge is accepted by the issuing bank, the merchant
gets paid by their processor, period.

What if there's a later chargeback?

Chargebacks are debited from the merchant's account with the card
processor. If the merchant's account is closed with a negative balance
(eg. due to excessive chargebacks), the debt is collected through the
usual channels.

Note that failure of the consumer to pay their credit card bill does
_not_ result in a chargeback, contrary to Adam's ridiculous claims.

Indeed, as long as the failure to pay was "because I have no money",
rather than "because I dispute the charge".

When a customer disputes a credit card or charge card transaction, it is
removed from their bill until the matter is resolved, so it doesn't fit
the usual definition of "unpaid".

Also, in most cases, the customer won't discover transactions they need
to dispute until they get their bill--days or weeks after the releveant
merchants have already been paid.

(Debit card transactions are _not_ removed immediately in the event of a
dispute, which is a significant difference.)

S

--
Stephen Sprunk "God does not play dice." --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723 "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking

On 26-Feb-12 18:10, John Levine wrote:
Exactly. I don't know how a restaurant could do an earlier estimated
reservation of funds, when the only time you give the server your card
is either at the till on the way out, or at the table when he brings the
wireless terminal to you.

That would require a significant change to the way US restaurants work.

In Canada, where the restaurant culture is pretty much the same as in
the U.S., now that they have chip+pin, when you pay, they bring the
terminal to you and let you enter the tip before you enter the PIN.
It doesn't seem to have been a big deal.

I don't see why US restaurants would object,

US industry objects to pretty much anything that costs them money (eg.
new terminals) in the short run, even if it will quite obviously benefit
them in the long run.

particularly since they'll likely get fewer chargebacks with customer
entered PINs

They don't seem interested in accepting PINs today for debit cards,
which would instantly lower their merchant fees and probably reduce
chargebacks.

and less opportunity for staff to accidentally or deliberately mis-
enter the tip.

I've never heard of that being a significant problem from restaurant
managers, and deliberate offenders would be easily caught (and handed
over to the police) when a pattern of disputes arose.

More problematic is when waiters clone customers' cards when they have
them out of the customers' sight, but that doesn't implicate _that
merchant_, so why would they care?

S

--
Stephen Sprunk "God does not play dice." --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723 "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking

On 27-Feb-12 03:45, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 20:03:27 on Sun, 26 Feb
2012, Stephen Sprunk remarked:
Considering that the convenience store is where fueling stations really
make their profits, though, unattended operation doesn't seem to make a
lot of sense from their perspective.

It helps with brand loyalty, and assists in keeping competitors out of
the local market.

Ah, good points.

Also, I didn't think to mention semi-unattended operation, which is
actually quite common: stations in low-traffic areas may be unattended
during hours the convenience store doesn't bring in enough revenue to
justify the cost of a cashier, eg. graveyard shift. However, that's no
reason to turn off the fuel pumps' ability to accept plastic.

S

--
Stephen Sprunk "God does not play dice." --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723 "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking

Stephen Sprunk wrote:

(Debit card transactions are _not_ removed immediately in the event of a
dispute, which is a significant difference.)

The debit has already occurred, so procedures with credit cards are
irrelevant. A chargeback by the clearinghouse to the merchant's account
isn't possible. The amount must be refunded.

Federal protections for debit card users are minimal. I don't have
such a card, and I don't have an ATM card either. For the purpose of
consumer protections in federal law, an ATM card is a type of debit card
even though it is not a medium for general purpose purchasing.

In message , Graeme Wall
writes
Not actually come across any contactless credit cards in the wild yet.
On-line you need a different PIN, aka a security code.
Barclaycard have the contactless symbol on them.
--
Clive

In message , at 10:07:03 on Mon, 27 Feb
2012, Stephen Sprunk remarked:
Note that failure of the consumer to pay their credit card bill does
_not_ result in a chargeback, contrary to Adam's ridiculous claims.

Indeed, as long as the failure to pay was "because I have no money",
rather than "because I dispute the charge".

When a customer disputes a credit card or charge card transaction, it is
removed from their bill until the matter is resolved, so it doesn't fit
the usual definition of "unpaid".

Nor is it "paid". If the card company finds in favour of the consumer,
I'm sure the merchant doesn't get paid, whether the transaction was
originally authorised or not.
--
Roland Perry