Roland Perry wrote:
at 14:13:12 on Tue, 28 Feb 2012, Adam H. Kerman remarked:

I suppose the devices used in restaurants wouldn't survive being
dropped onto a hard surface outdoors.

Not inevitable. I wonder if they work after being flushed down the
toilet or thrown in a barbecue ?

Dude: The article YOU CITED said that the spec included surviving being
dropped on a hard surface from waist height.

On 28/02/2012 11:34, Neil Williams wrote:
On Sun, 26 Feb 2012 18:32:17 +0000 (UTC), "Adam H. Kerman"
wrote:
Uh, always? What do you do at a fuel station which requires a credit
card before dispensing fuel, or at a restaurant, when the tip amount
to be charged is not known until later

In the latter case, you usually enter the tip into the machine before
giving your PIN.

Neil


Or you can forgo the tip and via the machine and just leave a few coins.

On 28/02/2012 13:24, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
Neil wrote:
"Adam H. wrote:

Uh, always? What do you do at a fuel station which requires a credit
card before dispensing fuel, or at a restaurant, when the tip amount
to be charged is not known until later

In the latter case, you usually enter the tip into the machine before
giving your PIN.

Interesting. Thank you.

Is the terminal the waiter brings to your table exchanging telemetry
wirelessly during the transaction, or does it have to be plugged into
a base station elsewhere in the restaurant? I assume it's wireless.

They are wireless, yes.

Are they robust enough to be used where fare collection with a hand-
held device is warranted, if gawd forbid we talk about transport, or
would a more robust hand-held device be used on trains?

They use different equipment on trains, and they are more robust. Don't
know how or even if they uplink to a computer when the train is moving.

On 28/02/2012 14:13, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
Roland wrote:
at 13:24:29 on Tue, 28 Feb 2012, Adam H. remarked:

Is the terminal the waiter brings to your table exchanging telemetry
wirelessly during the transaction, or does it have to be plugged into
a base station elsewhere in the restaurant? I assume it's wireless.

They are connected wirelessly (to a base within the retailer's
premises), Bluetooth apparently:

http://www.paymentsense.co.uk/card-p...ble-terminals/

Hm. I see they have versions that work with both local wireless networks
and mobile data networks.

Are they robust enough to be used where fare collection with a hand-
held device is warranted, if gawd forbid we talk about transport, or
would a more robust hand-held device be used on trains?

Outwardly similar devices are available (they don't use regular retail
handhelds communicating with a base station on the train):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avantix_Mobile

Right. I didn't think those were wireless devices.

I wasn't thinking about ticket-printing machines, per se, but getting
back to another discussion we had in which the credit card number itself is
used as the ticket medium and the passenger gets billed for all passage
at the end of the month.

I suppose the devices used in restaurants wouldn't survive being
dropped onto a hard surface outdoors.

I've seen one or two dropped and resume working without any problems.
I'm sure that they are designed for this kind of eventuality.

On 28/02/2012 11:37, Neil Williams wrote:
On Mon, 27 Feb 2012 08:25:13 +0000, Roland Perry
wrote:
There's still a way for waiters to 'game' the system. If they hand
the
terminal to the customer after themselves entering a zero tip, the
customer is "forced" to leave a cash tip (or query the lack of tip,
which hardly ever seems to happen).

Or to leave nothing.

Neil


Yes, indeed.

Tipping in restaurants is largely optional here in Britain and the
amount is completely up the patron's discretion.

There is no sort of intimidation like you might see in the United
States, though the pay levels are different.

Some restaurants try to slap on a 12.5% service charge, though that is
completely optional and you can opt out of it.

Some restaurants will add a bit of service charge if they are dealing
with a large group, however.

On Feb 28, 12:48*pm, Roland Perry wrote:

on Tue, 28 Feb 2012, Neil Williams remarked:

There's still a way for waiters to 'game' the system. If they hand
the terminal to the customer after themselves entering a zero tip,
the customer is "forced" to leave a cash tip (or query the lack of
tip, which hardly ever seems to happen).

Or to leave nothing.

Which is what tends to happen if I'm the customer. If I'm paying by card
it's probably because I don't have suitable cash on me. But it doesn't
bother me because I assume it's the waiter gaming the system and losing,
and that was his choice.

They might not care whether or not you leave a tip paid for by card
(indeed they might prefer you didn't), if they're unlikely ever to see
any of that tip come their way. Unfortunately a fair few
establishments don't do a very good job of routing tips paid for by
card back to their staff (if indeed any of it gets to them). I prefer
to leave a cash tip if possible.

On Feb 28, 10:20*pm, "
wrote:
[...]
Tipping in restaurants is largely optional here in Britain and the
amount is completely up the patron's discretion.

10%'s normal.


There is no sort of intimidation like you might see in the United
States, though the pay levels are different.

Some restaurants try to slap on a 12.5% service charge, though that is
completely optional and you can opt out of it.

It's not always straightforward though.


Some restaurants will add a bit of service charge if they are dealing
with a large group, however.

On Tue, 28 Feb 2012 13:24:29 +0000 (UTC), "Adam H. Kerman"
wrote:
Is the terminal the waiter brings to your table exchanging telemetry
wirelessly during the transaction, or does it have to be plugged
into
a base station elsewhere in the restaurant? I assume it's wireless.

Yes it is.

Are they robust enough to be used where fare collection with a hand-
held device is warranted, if gawd forbid we talk about transport, or
would a more robust hand-held device be used on trains?

I've seen them used on trains (in the buffet car mainly), but more
common is an integrated ticket and payment machine. Traditionally
the railway did not pre-authorise at all (at their risk) but with
on-train Wi-Fi and mobile phone based devices this is likely to
change.

Neil

--
Neil Williams, Milton Keynes, UK

On Tue, 28 Feb 2012 22:13:18 +0000, "
wrote:
Or you can forgo the tip and via the machine and just leave a few
coins.

If you have some suitable ones.

Neil

--
Neil Williams, Milton Keynes, UK

In message , at 14:05:50 on Tue, 28 Feb
2012, Stephen Sprunk remarked:
The dispute and chargeback procedures involving the issuing
bank, the card network, the card processor and the merchant are all
identical regardless of what class of payment card is used.

You just made something up. I'm still calling it a refund, and not a
chargeback, to distinguish between the merchant receiving payment in
advance of when the cardholder pays his bill, and the merchant receiving
money from the cardholder's bank account.

The merchant _never_ receives money from the cardholder's bank account.

I certainly feels like that, when you use a debit card.

When a purchase is posted, the card processor credits the merchant's
account and debits the network's account, the network credits the card
processor's account and debits the issuing bank's account, and the
issuing bank credits the network's account and debits the customer's
account. NO ACTUAL MONEY CHANGES HANDS at that time.

No folding banknotes (because it's all electronic), but why do you say
those credits and debits above are not "money"?
--
Roland Perry