Roland Perry writes:

In message , at 22:59:46
on Fri, 24 Feb 2012, Charles Ellson
remarked:
What credit card transaction requires a PIN? Those are strictly for
debit card transactions.

All UK transactions.

... other than on-line (or contactless?).

And several other classes of payment[1] transaction including many car
park pay machines and apparently the M6 Toll.

The M6 Toll is at most just over a fiver, which bring it well under the
limit for non-pin contactless. On a french autoroute, however, you can spend a
significant amount without needing a PIN.

Roland Perry writes:

In message , at 14:09:37 on Sun, 26 Feb
2012, Stephen Sprunk remarked:
In a UK restaurant you have to add the tip to the bill before contacting
the card company. That's not so very different from my experience in the
USA where they give you the bill, with an empty field for the tip, which
you hand to the waiter *filled in* (along with your card).

The only* way I've ever seen it in the US is this:

1. The waiter presents an itemized bill _without_ a tip line.
2. You either give him cash (including tip) or a card.
3. The waiter swipes the card in the register, which authorizes the card
for the bill plus an estimated tip.
4. The waiter returns with the card and two slips showing the subtotal,
empty tip line, and empty total line.
5. You fill in the tip and total on the "merchant copy" slip, sign the
slip and hand it back to the waiter. You can leave now. (You should
also fill the tip and total on the "customer copy" slip, for your own
records.)
6. The waiter enters the tip into the register, which updates the credit
card transaction with the correct total for when it's posted later.

That just shows things are indeed different in different countries.
In the UK I have never been asked for pre-authorisation in a resturant, would
walk out if I was. Some pubs you pay when you order, but that is
payment, you pay again with a different transaction if you order
anything else.

At Pizza Hut you pay when you leave, what would they do if you are paying by cash?

Hotels tend to do this, but never sure why as they have your card
details when you book, so that they can charge you if you don't turn up.

Roland Perry writes:

In message , at 13:24:29 on Tue, 28 Feb
2012, Adam H. Kerman remarked:
Is the terminal the waiter brings to your table exchanging telemetry
wirelessly during the transaction, or does it have to be plugged into
a base station elsewhere in the restaurant? I assume it's wireless.

They are connected wirelessly (to a base within the retailer's
premises), Bluetooth apparently:

http://www.paymentsense.co.uk/card-processing/perfect-
terminal/portable-terminals/

Are they robust enough to be used where fare collection with a hand-
held device is warranted, if gawd forbid we talk about transport, or
would a more robust hand-held device be used on trains?

Outwardly similar devices are available (they don't use regular retail
handhelds communicating with a base station on the train):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avantix_Mobile
On the trains here in rural Shropshire, the ticket collectors carry these, with a chip and
pin reader attached.

In message , at 13:42:19 on Sun, 4 Mar 2012,
Phil remarked:
In a UK restaurant you have to add the tip to the bill before contacting
the card company. That's not so very different from my experience in the
USA where they give you the bill, with an empty field for the tip, which
you hand to the waiter *filled in* (along with your card).

The only* way I've ever seen it in the US is this:

1. The waiter presents an itemized bill _without_ a tip line.
2. You either give him cash (including tip) or a card.
3. The waiter swipes the card in the register, which authorizes the card
for the bill plus an estimated tip.
4. The waiter returns with the card and two slips showing the subtotal,
empty tip line, and empty total line.
5. You fill in the tip and total on the "merchant copy" slip, sign the
slip and hand it back to the waiter. You can leave now. (You should
also fill the tip and total on the "customer copy" slip, for your own
records.)
6. The waiter enters the tip into the register, which updates the credit
card transaction with the correct total for when it's posted later.

That just shows things are indeed different in different countries.
In the UK I have never been asked for pre-authorisation in a resturant, would
walk out if I was.

I don't think I've ever been asked either. For the avoidance of doubt,
the process described above isn't pre-authorizing, it's what happens
when you pay at the end of the meal.

Some pubs you pay when you order, but that is payment, you pay again
with a different transaction if you order anything else.

One of the biggest differences between pubs is whether they allow "run a
tab", or "run a tab if they hold your card", or of course ask for
payment with order.

There's also a different feel between pubs where you order at the bar,
and ones with waiters.

At Pizza Hut you pay when you leave, what would they do if you are paying by cash?

You pay them the cash, and leave a cash tip on the table if you want to.

Hotels tend to do this, but never sure why as they have your card
details when you book, so that they can charge you if you don't turn up.

Once you've turned up it becomes a "cardholder present" transaction,
which has different rules to "cardholder not present" (for a no-show
room booking).
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry writes:

In message , at 08:35:46
on Fri, 2 Mar 2012, Robert Neville remarked:
(Note to USA subscribers: for a generation, Barclaycard and VISA were
synonymous in the UK.)

I recall some of my early trips to the UK, attempting use use a Mastercard,
getting a puzzled look from the clerk and having to say "Just process it like a
Eurocard".

Hmm, not sure what a Eurocard is - the closest I recall is a cheque
guarantee card for an obsolete initiative called "Eurocheques", which
were a kind of cheque that you could write in any currency in the EU
(and long before the Euro was a currency - so we are talking about
Deutschmarks, Francs etc).

I remember Eurocard in Europe, in the UK it was called Access.

Phil

On 04-Mar-12 07:42, Phil wrote:
Roland Perry writes:
In message , at 14:09:37 on Sun, 26 Feb
2012, Stephen Sprunk remarked:
In a UK restaurant you have to add the tip to the bill before contacting
the card company. That's not so very different from my experience in the
USA where they give you the bill, with an empty field for the tip, which
you hand to the waiter *filled in* (along with your card).

The only* way I've ever seen it in the US is this:

1. The waiter presents an itemized bill _without_ a tip line.
2. You either give him cash (including tip) or a card.
3. The waiter swipes the card in the register, which authorizes the card
for the bill plus an estimated tip.
4. The waiter returns with the card and two slips showing the subtotal,
empty tip line, and empty total line.
5. You fill in the tip and total on the "merchant copy" slip, sign the
slip and hand it back to the waiter. You can leave now. (You should
also fill the tip and total on the "customer copy" slip, for your own
records.)
6. The waiter enters the tip into the register, which updates the credit
card transaction with the correct total for when it's posted later.

That just shows things are indeed different in different countries.

In the UK I have never been asked for pre-authorisation in a resturant,
would walk out if I was. Some pubs you pay when you order, but that is
payment, you pay again with a different transaction if you order
anything else.

The above is the standard and accepted model for US restaurants with
waitstaff. Also, note that the above all happens _after_ you have
eaten, so if you walked out, they would likely report you to the police
for not paying for your meal.

At Pizza Hut you pay when you leave, what would they do if you are paying
by cash?

US restaurants with a cashier use the same payment model as any other
merchant with cashiers, since a tip can be added before the
authorization is done. The unusual (to you) process above is only for
when you pay a waiter and your card must be authorized before the tip is
known.

Hotels tend to do this, but never sure why as they have your card
details when you book, so that they can charge you if you don't turn up.

I suspect it relates to the liability difference between "card present"
vs. "card not present" transactions. Also, before you check in, they
haven't incurred anything other than the opportunity cost of you
blocking someone else reserving a room, which is zero unless they're
full (rare at most hotels). Once you check in, though, they are
incurring actual costs for serving you, and they have a greater need to
ensure they'll actually get paid.

S

--
Stephen Sprunk "God does not play dice." --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723 "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking

Stephen Sprunk wrote:
On 03-Mar-12 02:46, Roland Perry wrote:
at 15:27:42 on Fri, 2 Mar 2012, Stephen Sprunk remarked:

This Web page discusses payment methods that also apply to paying
on train: http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_...t_methods.html

Credit/Debit/Charge Cards

All National Rail train companies accept the major cards
such as Visa, Visa Delta, MasterCard, Maestro and Amex.
Some train companies also accept Diners Club International,
Solo and Electron.

Nothing on this page says that gift cards are accepted. Gosh. They
must know the card number ranges!

Why would they care if it's a gift card? A card is a card; as long as
the transaction is authorized, that's all that matters.

That's the big "if". There are many ticket vending machines, and
portable machines, which are simply not "online", so they can't
authorise at all.

Then the merchant is taking a risk on each transaction, regardless of
the card type.

Given the cheap and ubiquitous mobile data networks, there is no excuse
for not being able to do online authorization. (If the rail network has
spotty signal coverage, this will help motivate them to fix that, which
also results in better service for customers and therefore the ability
to increase fares.)

Just make it a feature of Positive Train Control, right, Stephen?

On 04/03/2012 08:51, Roland Perry wrote:

The problem with the (former) holders of Solo/Electron cards is that
often they are minor and therefore pursuing debts against them is
tricky. So they need a bank account and debit card which cannot go
overdrawn. In the UK we don't usually have parents co-signing in such
circumstance, other than perhaps for the rental of a property for a
student. Then there are the folks whose bank won't allow them an
overdraft because they haven't been shown to be fiscally responsible.

As a result, there's an aura of literally "poor man's card" hanging over
all debit cards.

Eh? This might be true for Solo/Electron cards (which never seemed to
be accepted by everyone), though I don't have any experience with one.
I do have a couple of debit cards, replacing cheque guarantee and ATM
cards on my current accounts (US:checking accounts)[1], but I've never
noticed any form of poor man's aura about them.

[1] As do tens of millions of other UK current account holders.

A lot of credit card holders use them in effect as charge cards, as a
substitute for the "monthly credit" that the middle classes used to get
from tradesmen.

Before my time but, given the interest rates on credit cards, how else
would you use them if you are in a position to clear the debt on them
each month? (And, although this might be an old-fashioned view, if you're
not in a position to clear the debt you ought not run it up in the first
place.)

Mind you, having your grocer deliver your shopping is back in fashion.



--
Graham Nye
news(a)thenyes.org.uk

Mizter T writes:

On Feb 26, 7:40Â*pm, Goalie of the Century wrote:

In message , Graeme Wall
writes

Tescos in UK have a facility to "Pay at Pump" Â*You insert your credit
card and enter PIN and then fill up and drive off.

All the Tescos I've seen also have a shop and the option to pay there
instead but I recently came across an ASDA that was entirely unmanned.
[...]

There are some about in the UK - the justification is that they are
monitored by the store's CCTV system and on-site security staff, but
I've also read some misgivings about this practice from Fire Bridage
types.
Un-manned petrol stations are quite common on the continent. Tescos are
pay at pump only at night.

Must admit I prefer pay at pump, so much faster, saves locking the
car. I like the Asda ones, you don't get someone leaving the car on the
pump and come out with 2 carrier bags full of stuff they should have
gone into the shop for.

Phil

spsffan writes:

On 2/23/2012 8:17 PM, Roger Traviss wrote:
Not to mention that using cash makes spending money somewhat more
visceral, which I kinda like... keeps spending down a bit maybe.

I find the U.S. credit/debit-card obsession just sort of weird...

Other than a few toonies and loonies (Google if you don't know what they
are) in the glove compartment for parking meters and they are not really
required as most meters take credit cards, I never carry cash.

My newest debit card, arrived yesterday, lets me use it like a credit card
for on-line purchases and like a credit card when travelling outside Canada,
although it still debits my bank account.



And then there are certain places where you can't use cash. The
gasoline pumps at Costco come to mind. They don't take Visa or
Mastercard either, but do take American Express, and debit cards.
I would be stuffed, my debit card is a Visa (debit) card.

Phil