wrote:
On 24/02/2012 21:20, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
Stephen wrote:
On 24-Feb-12 09:01, d wrote:
On Fri, 24 Feb 2012 07:13:13 -0700 Robert wrote:
d wrote:

He must be one of those bloody annoying people who insist on paying
for a 2.50 sandwich with a credit card and causing a huge queue of
****ed off hungry customers behind him.

That may have been true 10 years ago. Current terminals handle credit
card transactions far faster than cash and in most cases, don't even
require a signature if the value is under a certain threshold.

Hand cash over - walk out. If you can do that faster with a credit
card then I'd be interesting in hearing your technique.

In the US (and Canada, IIRC), sales tax is not included in the posted
price, so a customer doesn't know how much cash to hand over until the
total is computed by the cash register. Then, either the customer has
to count out the correct payment or the cashier has to count out the
correct change for a large bill.

Swiping a card is faster--much faster if the transaction total is under
the merchant's "floor", i.e. doesn't require a signature/PIN.

What credit card transaction requires a PIN? Those are strictly for
debit card transactions.

I regularly used my PIN on credit card transactions here in London.

I have no idea if a PIN would be required if you swiped it at a
US retail terminal.

On 24/02/2012 23:00, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
wrote:
On 24/02/2012 21:20, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
Stephen wrote:
On 24-Feb-12 09:01, d wrote:
On Fri, 24 Feb 2012 07:13:13 -0700 Robert wrote:
d wrote:

He must be one of those bloody annoying people who insist on paying
for a 2.50 sandwich with a credit card and causing a huge queue of
****ed off hungry customers behind him.

That may have been true 10 years ago. Current terminals handle credit
card transactions far faster than cash and in most cases, don't even
require a signature if the value is under a certain threshold.

Hand cash over - walk out. If you can do that faster with a credit
card then I'd be interesting in hearing your technique.

In the US (and Canada, IIRC), sales tax is not included in the posted
price, so a customer doesn't know how much cash to hand over until the
total is computed by the cash register. Then, either the customer has
to count out the correct payment or the cashier has to count out the
correct change for a large bill.

Swiping a card is faster--much faster if the transaction total is under
the merchant's "floor", i.e. doesn't require a signature/PIN.

What credit card transaction requires a PIN? Those are strictly for
debit card transactions.

I regularly used my PIN on credit card transactions here in London.

I have no idea if a PIN would be required if you swiped it at a
US retail terminal.

No, UK credit cards also have a magnetic stripe on the back, so they can
be swiped through a US retail terminal. You just have to sign on the
transaction, rather than use your PIN.

What does Canada use, I wonder?

Sometimes, the bank will do a spot check and ask you to sign on a
transaction here in the UK, rather than just enter your PIN.

On 25/02/2012 14:13, wrote:
On 24/02/2012 23:00, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
Stephen wrote:

Swiping a card is faster--much faster if the transaction total is under
the merchant's "floor", i.e. doesn't require a signature/PIN.

I have no idea if a PIN would be required if you swiped it at a
US retail terminal.

No, UK credit cards also have a magnetic stripe on the back, so they can
be swiped through a US retail terminal. You just have to sign on the
transaction, rather than use your PIN.

Only if, as above, the transaction is above the merchant's floor limit.
When using my UK credit card in the US I only needed to sign for some
transactions.

The occasional machine, e.g. at gas stations, wanted to know my home
zip code (which, of course, I don't have) but I was able to pay in
the kiosk. (US gas stations need payment before dispensing fuel,
rather than afterwards, as in the UK.)


--
Graham Nye
news(a)thenyes.org.uk

In message , at 15:48:40 on Sat, 25
Feb 2012, Graham Nye remarked:
No, UK credit cards also have a magnetic stripe on the back, so they can
be swiped through a US retail terminal. You just have to sign on the
transaction, rather than use your PIN.

Only if, as above, the transaction is above the merchant's floor limit.
When using my UK credit card in the US I only needed to sign for some
transactions.

There's some over-simplification here. While I agree that some retailers
(especially high-margin ones like restaurants) may not require a
signature, there's a second floor limit above which they have to call
the credit card company. That limit seems to me to be much lower than
you'd get in the UK for a similar transaction verified by PIN.

The occasional machine, e.g. at gas stations, wanted to know my home
zip code (which, of course, I don't have) but I was able to pay in
the kiosk. (US gas stations need payment before dispensing fuel,
rather than afterwards, as in the UK.)

There's some over-generalisation here, it depends where you are in the
USA; some places need payment first, others don't. It depends a little
on the local demographic.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry wrote:
at 15:48:40 on Sat, 25 Feb 2012, Graham Nye remarked:

No, UK credit cards also have a magnetic stripe on the back, so they can
be swiped through a US retail terminal. You just have to sign on the
transaction, rather than use your PIN.

Only if, as above, the transaction is above the merchant's floor limit.
When using my UK credit card in the US I only needed to sign for some
transactions.

There's some over-simplification here. While I agree that some retailers
(especially high-margin ones like restaurants) may not require a
signature, there's a second floor limit above which they have to call
the credit card company. That limit seems to me to be much lower than
you'd get in the UK for a similar transaction verified by PIN.

Really? There's no concept of pre-authorizing the transaction, then
charging the customer the approved charge in two separate steps, both
performed at the retail terminal?

Jewelry stores don't call the credit card processor or bank if nothing
appears to be amiss. It's handled electronically.

The occasional machine, e.g. at gas stations, wanted to know my home
zip code (which, of course, I don't have) but I was able to pay in
the kiosk. (US gas stations need payment before dispensing fuel,
rather than afterwards, as in the UK.)

There's some over-generalisation here, it depends where you are in the
USA; some places need payment first, others don't. It depends a little
on the local demographic.

Actually, two gas stations at the same intersection can have different
policies.

In message , at 16:40:17 on Sat, 25 Feb
2012, Adam H. Kerman remarked:

No, UK credit cards also have a magnetic stripe on the back, so they can
be swiped through a US retail terminal. You just have to sign on the
transaction, rather than use your PIN.

Only if, as above, the transaction is above the merchant's floor limit.
When using my UK credit card in the US I only needed to sign for some
transactions.

There's some over-simplification here. While I agree that some retailers
(especially high-margin ones like restaurants) may not require a
signature, there's a second floor limit above which they have to call
the credit card company. That limit seems to me to be much lower than
you'd get in the UK for a similar transaction verified by PIN.

Really? There's no concept of pre-authorizing the transaction, then
charging the customer the approved charge in two separate steps, both
performed at the retail terminal?

No. I routinely spend amounts of the order of a thousand dollars at
retailers by Chip and PIN card, and it's a one-shot process.

The only time I've had a hiccup in the last few years was spending a
paltry $300 in a store in the USA, when they called the credit card
company, checked my ID, and then my CCC *still* phoned me in (what was
in USA) the middle of the night to ask if I recognised the transaction.

Jewelry stores don't call the credit card processor or bank if nothing
appears to be amiss. It's handled electronically.

The mechanism is that their terminal asks them to call, if the
transaction is flagged.

The occasional machine, e.g. at gas stations, wanted to know my home
zip code (which, of course, I don't have) but I was able to pay in
the kiosk. (US gas stations need payment before dispensing fuel,
rather than afterwards, as in the UK.)

There's some over-generalisation here, it depends where you are in the
USA; some places need payment first, others don't. It depends a little
on the local demographic.

Actually, two gas stations at the same intersection can have different
policies.

So it also depends a little on the retailer's internal policy (and also
their previous record for accepting fraudulent transactions, which might
in turn depend on their staff training programme), but common sense
tells us that already.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry wrote:
at 16:40:17 on Sat, 25 Feb 2012, Adam H. Kerman remarked:

No, UK credit cards also have a magnetic stripe on the back, so they can
be swiped through a US retail terminal. You just have to sign on the
transaction, rather than use your PIN.

Only if, as above, the transaction is above the merchant's floor limit.
When using my UK credit card in the US I only needed to sign for some
transactions.

There's some over-simplification here. While I agree that some retailers
(especially high-margin ones like restaurants) may not require a
signature, there's a second floor limit above which they have to call
the credit card company. That limit seems to me to be much lower than
you'd get in the UK for a similar transaction verified by PIN.

Really? There's no concept of pre-authorizing the transaction, then
charging the customer the approved charge in two separate steps, both
performed at the retail terminal?

No. I routinely spend amounts of the order of a thousand dollars at
retailers by Chip and PIN card, and it's a one-shot process.

If that's true, then I suspect your credit limit is stored on the card.

In a typical transaction in the US, the customer or cashier swipes the
card at the terminal (which one does it depends on the layout). Data is
exchanged with the credit card processor's server. Data sent back to
the merchant's terminal is the account credit limit (not disclosed to
the cashier unless there is a situation with a high-value purchase like
jewelry) and authorization code. The authorization code is critical,
which is why merchants cooperate in pre-authorizing sales. If a merchant
submits a transaction that wasn't pre-authorized and the bill isn't paid,
the merchant's account is charged back.

During authorization, there is a temporary freeze put on the cardholder's
credit limit in some fixed block amount, such as rounding up to the next
$100. This block must exceed the actual purchase amount.

When the total sale is known and taxes calculated, this amount is sent
to the credit card processor. The merchant then receives back a transaction
ID number, which may be printed on the receipt. The cardholder sees this
number on the monthly statement.

The credit limit freeze stays on the cardholder's account till the sale
has been posted to his account. This could happen immediately, but it
may not happen until the merchant submits his accounts that night, and
might be delayed a couple of days if more than one card processor is
involved.

Now, the authorization and transaction ID steps can occur closer together
if the total sale amount is sent with the credit card account number,
but the retailer receives the data back in two steps. It just depends
how fully integrated the card terminal is into the cash register.
Retail stores tend to have more sophisticated terminals than, say,
restaurants do. At a restaurant, the food and drinks bill may be calculated
on one system (or by hand in plenty of places), the cash register is not
integrated into the food ordering system the kitchen sees if they aren't
still going by hand-written tickets, and the card terminal is separate
still. In that case, the cashier rings up the purchase, gets a total,
swipes the credit card, waits to receive authorization, then enters the
total again into the card terminal, then receives the transaction ID back
which prints on the credit card slip the customer signs. Some restaurants
can enter the total into the card terminal at the time the card is swiped,
but they ask the customer to add the tip before entering the total.

Fast food restaurants have extremely sophisticated and well integrated
systems, using one system to take the order and relay the order to the
kitchen and handle the sale, including the credit card transaction.

In any of these setups, from the customer's perspective, the card is
swiped just the one time (unless there is a failure to obtain authorization),
but the authorization and transaction are two separate steps, perhaps
with a noticeable delay between the two.

Jewelry stores don't call the credit card processor or bank if nothing
appears to be amiss. It's handled electronically.

The mechanism is that their terminal asks them to call, if the
transaction is flagged.

Yeah, hoping and praying that they are dealing with mere con artists
committing a burglary and that the situation won't deteriorate into
a robbery.

The occasional machine, e.g. at gas stations, wanted to know my home
zip code (which, of course, I don't have) but I was able to pay in
the kiosk. (US gas stations need payment before dispensing fuel,
rather than afterwards, as in the UK.)

There's some over-generalisation here, it depends where you are in the
USA; some places need payment first, others don't. It depends a little
on the local demographic.

Actually, two gas stations at the same intersection can have different
policies.

So it also depends a little on the retailer's internal policy (and also
their previous record for accepting fraudulent transactions, which might
in turn depend on their staff training programme), but common sense
tells us that already.

It may depend on past history of theft, but as I commented on in the
other message, it may depend more upon assuming that the driver is
traveling a great distance and this won't be a repeat customer, with
a hint of prejudice against strangers from out of town being more likely
to be thieves than locals are.

Of course some merchants assume everyone is a thief, no matter how
regularly he shops there.

On 25/02/2012 16:21, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 15:48:40 on Sat, 25
Feb 2012, Graham Nye remarked:
When using my UK credit card in the US I only needed to sign for some
transactions.

There's some over-simplification here. While I agree that some retailers
(especially high-margin ones like restaurants) may not require a
signature, there's a second floor limit above which they have to call
the credit card company. That limit seems to me to be much lower than
you'd get in the UK for a similar transaction verified by PIN.

Having signed my CC bill in restaurants I was expecting a waiter
to come back and at least pretend to check the signature. But no,
you just sign and go, and they collect the CC slip when they clear
the table. Perhaps I didn't need to sign the slip (but they had
the usual pre-printed lines to sign along).

[Gas stations.]
There's some over-generalisation here, it depends where you are in the
USA; some places need payment first, others don't. It depends a little
on the local demographic.

Clearly it must have been crooked! Well, it was the Wild West (Arizona).


--
Graham Nye
news(a)thenyes.org.uk

On 25-Feb-12 10:58, Graham Nye wrote:
On 25/02/2012 16:21, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 15:48:40 on Sat, 25
Feb 2012, Graham Nye remarked:
When using my UK credit card in the US I only needed to sign for some
transactions.

There's some over-simplification here. While I agree that some retailers
(especially high-margin ones like restaurants) may not require a
signature, there's a second floor limit above which they have to call
the credit card company. That limit seems to me to be much lower than
you'd get in the UK for a similar transaction verified by PIN.

Having signed my CC bill in restaurants I was expecting a waiter
to come back and at least pretend to check the signature. But no,
you just sign and go, and they collect the CC slip when they clear
the table. Perhaps I didn't need to sign the slip (but they had
the usual pre-printed lines to sign along).

In practice, few merchants care whether the signature matches; how
strictly the rules are enforced depends almost entirely on the
merchant's chargeback rate. As a general rule, the industry tolerates a
"manageable" level of fraud because it's less costly than actually
eliminating fraud--mainly in lost revenues, not higher expenses.

S

--
Stephen Sprunk "God does not play dice." --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723 "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking

On 25-Feb-12 10:21, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 15:48:40 on Sat, 25
Feb 2012, Graham Nye remarked:
No, UK credit cards also have a magnetic stripe on the back, so they can
be swiped through a US retail terminal. You just have to sign on the
transaction, rather than use your PIN.

Only if, as above, the transaction is above the merchant's floor limit.
When using my UK credit card in the US I only needed to sign for some
transactions.

There's some over-simplification here. While I agree that some retailers
(especially high-margin ones like restaurants) may not require a
signature, there's a second floor limit above which they have to call
the credit card company. That limit seems to me to be much lower than
you'd get in the UK for a similar transaction verified by PIN.

By "call the credit card company", do you mean actually speak with a
human, or just do a standard automated authorization?

The merchant's "floor" allows them to post transactions below a certain
threshold without prior authorization. At least in the US, the floor is
usually USD 25-50, though for some merchants it's $0 due to high
chargeback rates.

The occasional machine, e.g. at gas stations, wanted to know my home
zip code (which, of course, I don't have) but I was able to pay in
the kiosk. (US gas stations need payment before dispensing fuel,
rather than afterwards, as in the UK.)

There's some over-generalisation here, it depends where you are in the
USA; some places need payment first, others don't. It depends a little
on the local demographic.

More specifically, it will depend on the drive-off (i.e. theft) rate at
that location or in that neighborhood.

S

--
Stephen Sprunk "God does not play dice." --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723 "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking