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London Transport (uk.transport.london) Discussion of all forms of transport in London. |
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#1
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![]() "peter" wrote: I discovered a sneaky and little publicised aspect of the latest fares hike today. Bus 84 runs from New Barnet to Potters Bar and then St Albans. It is a long established route, dating back (literally) 100 years. Recently, oyster cards and travelcards have been accepted between New Barnet (which is inside Greater London) and Potters Bar (which is just outside). Today I boarded a southbound bus in Barnet, and found that oyster cards and travelcards were no longer accepted on this route. I am not personally affected, as I am sufficiently senior to use a freedom pass, but it seems a mean and underhand trick to remove this availability on a route which, for all practical purposes, is part of the London bus network at its southern end. It also runs along some roads inside London which are not served by any other route. I searched the TfL website, but could find no mention of this change. It is not included in their 'latest service changes' bulletin. Are any other routes similarly affected? Is this the thin end of a wedge leading to the fragmentation of London buses, as has happened in the rest of the country? The 84 is not a TfL-tendered bus service - i.e. it's not part of the London Bus network as such. Rather it's a commercial service, run by Metroline, on which TfL tickets are - or at least were - accepted for journeys within Greater London. Others will correct me, but AIUI bus services such as this used to be run within Greater London under a regime called 'London Local Service Agreements' (LLSA), but are now run under slightly different regime called 'London Service Permits' (LSP) (both were/are granted by TfL). There's a bit more info he http://www.tfl.gov.uk/businessandpartners/busoperators/1228.aspx In the latest "London Service Permit Bulletin" available from the above page... http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/businessandpartners/lsp_bulletin.pdf ....the Metroline 84 service features on page 20 under the heading: "2 January 2012 - Application for a new London Service Permit to replace a London Local Service Agreement". So it would appears as though the service has shifted over from the old LLSA regime to the new LSP regime for licensing purposes. The blurb does say: "NOTE: Operation of service transferred from LLSA to LSP with no changes to routeings, picking up and setting down points, terminal points, vehicles or timetable." However, there's no mention of fares or ticketing acceptance (or the lack thereof under the new LSP). TfL used to produce a handy leaflet (or at least PDF) called "Beyond the fringes" which detailed acceptance of TfL tickets on buses which ran beyond the Greater London boundary, but they haven't done so for two or three years now and AFAICS there's a dearth of any official information about this now. But no, worry not, this isn't the thin end of the wedge in the sense of London's bus services becoming fragmented - ticket acceptance (or lack thereof) on commercial services that run into Greater London from the there-be-dragons territory beyond the boundary is something of an edge issue (in both senses of the word) - meanwhile the tendered nature of the London Bus network is not under any threat (thankfully!). Not that it's an unimportant issue, mind - I'd think that ideally most such services (local ones at least, not express coach services) should accept TfL tickets for journeys wholly within Greater London. You could always contact London Buses customer services to find out what the score is in relation to the 84: http://www.tfl.gov.uk/contact/4417.aspx#page-link-london-buses |
#2
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On 10/01/2012 15:08, Mizter T wrote:
"peter" wrote: Bus 84 runs from New Barnet to Potters Bar and then St Albans. It is a long established route, dating back (literally) 100 years. Recently, oyster cards and travelcards have been accepted between New Barnet (which is inside Greater London) and Potters Bar (which is just outside). Today I boarded a southbound bus in Barnet, and found that oyster cards and travelcards were no longer accepted on this route. I am not personally affected, as I am sufficiently senior to use a freedom pass, but it seems a mean and underhand trick to remove this availability on a route which, for all practical purposes, is part of the London bus network at its southern end. It also runs along some roads inside London which are not served by any other route. I searched the TfL website, but could find no mention of this change. It is not included in their 'latest service changes' bulletin. Are any other routes similarly affected? Is this the thin end of a wedge leading to the fragmentation of London buses, as has happened in the rest of the country? The 84 is not a TfL-tendered bus service - i.e. it's not part of the London Bus network as such. Rather it's a commercial service, run by Metroline, on which TfL tickets are - or at least were - accepted for journeys within Greater London. Others will correct me, but AIUI bus services such as this used to be run within Greater London under a regime called 'London Local Service Agreements' (LLSA), but are now run under slightly different regime called 'London Service Permits' (LSP) (both were/are granted by TfL). There's a bit more info he http://www.tfl.gov.uk/businessandpartners/busoperators/1228.aspx In the latest "London Service Permit Bulletin" available from the above page... http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/businessandpartners/lsp_bulletin.pdf ...the Metroline 84 service features on page 20 under the heading: "2 January 2012 - Application for a new London Service Permit to replace a London Local Service Agreement". So it would appears as though the service has shifted over from the old LLSA regime to the new LSP regime for licensing purposes. The blurb does say: "NOTE: Operation of service transferred from LLSA to LSP with no changes to routeings, picking up and setting down points, terminal points, vehicles or timetable." However, there's no mention of fares or ticketing acceptance (or the lack thereof under the new LSP). TfL used to produce a handy leaflet (or at least PDF) called "Beyond the fringes" which detailed acceptance of TfL tickets on buses which ran beyond the Greater London boundary, but they haven't done so for two or three years now and AFAICS there's a dearth of any official information about this now. But no, worry not, this isn't the thin end of the wedge in the sense of London's bus services becoming fragmented - ticket acceptance (or lack thereof) on commercial services that run into Greater London from the there-be-dragons territory beyond the boundary is something of an edge issue (in both senses of the word) - meanwhile the tendered nature of the London Bus network is not under any threat (thankfully!). Not that it's an unimportant issue, mind - I'd think that ideally most such services (local ones at least, not express coach services) should accept TfL tickets for journeys wholly within Greater London. You could always contact London Buses customer services to find out what the score is in relation to the 84: http://www.tfl.gov.uk/contact/4417.aspx#page-link-london-buses See www.metroline.co.uk/news-item.html?id=29 which announces this change from 2.1.12. Holders of TfL tickets can however get a reduced fare of £1.35 between New Barnet and Potters Bar. |
#3
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In message om, Peter
Lawrence writes See www.metroline.co.uk/news-item.html?id=29 which announces this change from 2.1.12. Holders of TfL tickets can however get a reduced fare of £1.35 between New Barnet and Potters Bar. For as long as I can remember Oystercards and Bus Passes have been accepted on the 84 (I grew up in Potters Bar a couple of decades ago) - it was an excellent "value" way of travelling into Town all the way by bus. I'm amazed that this has been changed (and could be changed) without any TfL publicity. Thanks for flagging it up (the original) Peter. The 84 was was also a non DDA compliant bus long after all the rest of the buses had been converted to low floors models (and press releases had gone out to state that the entire network was converted). It seemed to swap over (and go to being a single decker) shortly after I posted TfL an email pointing this out (but that could just be my false recollection). It's at the periphery of the network and obviously doesn't have the same status as other bus routes, so seems to get overlooked. Once upon a time it did get some Hertfordshire County Council funding I seem to recall to run its Sunday services, but I've no idea if that still happens. The all-red TfL livery does confuse though, as one expects it to operate on the same criteria as all the other TfL liveried buses (e.g. aforementioned ticket acceptance). I've lobbed TfL an email because I'm curious about this lack of information. Shall post the results when I hear. -- Paul G Typing from Kentish Town |
#4
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Mizter T wrote
But no, worry not, this isn't the thin end of the wedge in the sense of London's bus services becoming fragmented - ticket acceptance (or lack thereof) on commercial services that run into Greater London from the there-be-dragons territory beyond the boundary is something of an edge issue (in both senses of the word) - meanwhile the tendered nature of the London Bus network is not under any threat (thankfully!). Not that it's an unimportant issue, mind - I'd think that ideally most such services (local ones at least, not express coach services) should accept TfL tickets for journeys wholly within Greater London. Which would require them to install Oyster card readers and particicipate in the ODTC revenue sharing system. Plus would they be paid nothing for an Oyster card that had reached its daily cap or a child photocard ? Abellio Surrey (services like Guildford-Kingston) have a "Oyster Match" fare for the segment of route within Zones (and a bit more). You pay in cash but at the Oyster flat fare rate of £1.40, for eg Kingston to Dittons Winters Bridge or to Hampton Court. -- Mike D |
#5
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On Jan 11, 1:54*am, "Michael R N Dolbear" wrote:
Mizter T wrote But no, worry not, this isn't the thin end of the wedge in the sense of London's bus services becoming fragmented - ticket acceptance (or lack thereof) on commercial services that run into Greater London from the there-be-dragons territory beyond the boundary is something of an edge issue (in both senses of the word) - meanwhile the tendered nature of the London Bus network is not under any threat (thankfully!). Not that it's an unimportant issue, mind - I'd think that ideally most such services (local ones at least, not express coach services) should accept TfL tickets http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...-Oyster-NR.pdf for journeys wholly within Greater London. Which would require them to install Oyster card readers and particicipate in the ODTC revenue sharing system. Plus would they be paid nothing for an Oyster card *that had reached its daily cap or a child photocard ? http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...-Oyster-NR.pdf suggests that TfL are looking to extend Oyster to bus companies outside London as part of the contactless payment card acceptance scheme, presumably using the PAYG balance as an e-purse to purchase the bus companies existing products. |
#6
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On Jan 15, 5:01*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Tue, 10 Jan 2012 19:59:17 -0800 (PST), Matthew Dickinson wrote: http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...-Oyster-NR.pdf suggests that TfL are looking to extend Oyster to bus companies outside London as part of the contactless payment card acceptance scheme, presumably using the PAYG balance as an e-purse to purchase the bus companies existing products. Interesting given the strategy, as recently evidenced to the GLA transport committee, within London is to move away from Oyster to use of contactless bank cards and off system settlement / capping. *We also have the DfT funded work to ensure ITSO spec cards can be read by all TfL oyster readers. *You have to wonder quite what it is that passengers will be expected to have in their wallets in a couple of years time to use TfL services, NR trains and buses outside London. *A combined contactless bank and ITSO card ? -- Paul C Contactless has a limit of £15 which is unlikely to be changed in the short term. So yes, either a combined ITSO / contactless payment card, or separate cards will need to be issued. |
#7
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In message
, at 18:25:30 on Sun, 15 Jan 2012, Matthew Dickinson remarked: Contactless has a limit of £15 which is unlikely to be changed in the short term. So yes, either a combined ITSO / contactless payment card, or separate cards will need to be issued. I wonder if Saga could do a combined Twirly/Credit Card? -- Roland Perry |
#8
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On 16/01/2012 02:25, Matthew Dickinson wrote:
On Jan 15, 5:01 pm, Paul wrote: On Tue, 10 Jan 2012 19:59:17 -0800 (PST), Matthew Dickinson wrote: http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...-Oyster-NR.pdf suggests that TfL are looking to extend Oyster to bus companies outside London as part of the contactless payment card acceptance scheme, presumably using the PAYG balance as an e-purse to purchase the bus companies existing products. Interesting given the strategy, as recently evidenced to the GLA transport committee, within London is to move away from Oyster to use of contactless bank cards and off system settlement / capping. We also have the DfT funded work to ensure ITSO spec cards can be read by all TfL oyster readers. You have to wonder quite what it is that passengers will be expected to have in their wallets in a couple of years time to use TfL services, NR trains and buses outside London. A combined contactless bank and ITSO card ? -- Paul C Contactless has a limit of £15 which is unlikely to be changed in the short term. So yes, either a combined ITSO / contactless payment card, or separate cards will need to be issued. My understanding is that the limit applies to travel within a single billing to the credit card, which could well be nightly. I think the maximum travel within London for one day is less than that. Kevin |
#9
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In message , at 17:01:02 on
Sun, 15 Jan 2012, Paul Corfield remarked: http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...-Oyster-NR.pdf suggests that TfL are looking to extend Oyster to bus companies outside London as part of the contactless payment card acceptance scheme, presumably using the PAYG balance as an e-purse to purchase the bus companies existing products. Interesting given the strategy, as recently evidenced to the GLA transport committee, within London is to move away from Oyster to use of contactless bank cards and off system settlement / capping. We also have the DfT funded work to ensure ITSO spec cards can be read by all TfL oyster readers. You have to wonder quite what it is that passengers will be expected to have in their wallets in a couple of years time to use TfL services, NR trains and buses outside London. A combined contactless bank and ITSO card ? I expect it'll be the same as happened with other sorts of plastic cards (including hotel and airline loyalty, various one-organisation age/ID cards etc) in that we'll have a wallet overflowing with the pesky things. I've now got four[1] travel smartcards[2] and I don't predict the number doing anything but increase ![]() [1] It'd be five[3] if I was still travelling to Amsterdam regularly. [2] Nottingham Bus Oyster[4] Stagecoach (EMT) Barclaycard Onepulse/Oyster [3] Or does a Digital Passport count as one as well? [4] OK, maybe I don't need this, but I can't be bothered to work out how to transfer the credit to my other one. And it's handy for irregular travel companions. -- Roland Perry |
#10
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Last Monday, someone wrote:
Something [1] something[2] somethingsomethingsomething ![]() [1] Something[3] somethingsomethingsomethingsomething [2] Something Something[4] Something (something) Something something/something [3] Something? [4] OK, something. Blimey. I don't want to attempt to be a Net Nanny without the appropriate checks, but please! We're not writing academic papers here. I don't think it really aids understanding. Do your worst. Thanks, Richard. |
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