On Feb 3, 12:31*pm, Bruce wrote:

Although Germany is generally thought of as an obedient nation,
exceptions do seem to apply on certain issues, especially those to do
with motoring. Radio bulletins regularly include blitzermeldungen
(flash warnings), which tell drivers where speed cameras appear to be
working on any given day.

And in the UK the authorities often put them on the Web in a kind-of
"fair play" type move.

The Swiss people I talk to are amazed that they do this.

Neil

On Feb 3, 1:04*pm, Neil Williams wrote:
On Feb 3, 12:31*pm, Bruce wrote:

Although Germany is generally thought of as an obedient nation,
exceptions do seem to apply on certain issues, especially those to do
with motoring. Radio bulletins regularly include blitzermeldungen
(flash warnings), which tell drivers where speed cameras appear to be
working on any given day.

And in the UK the authorities often put them on the Web in a kind-of
"fair play" type move.

The Swiss people I talk to are amazed that they do this.

On the other hand, on our local buses (in CH, any door boarding,
ocasional checks) the company seems to take a very "fair play"
attitude to checks. last time I was on a bus that got checked, the
driver announced on the PA that a check would happen at the next stop
so that anyone without a ticket could buy one from the on board
machine. I am told by others that checkers have been known to get on
and stand around in uniform obviously, waiting for people to go buy
their tickets before starting the check.

Robin

On Feb 3, 4:36*pm, bob wrote:

On the other hand, on our local buses (in CH, any door boarding,
ocasional checks) the company seems to take a very "fair play"
attitude to checks. *last time I was on a bus that got checked, the
driver announced on the PA that a check would happen at the next stop
so that anyone without a ticket could buy one from the on board
machine. *I am told by others that checkers have been known to get on
and stand around in uniform obviously, waiting for people to go buy
their tickets before starting the check.

When I was over in Den Haag for a bit, I found the inspectors normally
just marched anyone who had "forgotten" to validate their
Strippenkaart to the machine to do so, rather than issuing penalties
of any kind.

Neil

On 03/02/2012 16:01, Neil Williams wrote:
On Feb 3, 4:36 pm, wrote:

On the other hand, on our local buses (in CH, any door boarding,
ocasional checks) the company seems to take a very "fair play"
attitude to checks. last time I was on a bus that got checked, the
driver announced on the PA that a check would happen at the next stop
so that anyone without a ticket could buy one from the on board
machine. I am told by others that checkers have been known to get on
and stand around in uniform obviously, waiting for people to go buy
their tickets before starting the check.

When I was over in Den Haag for a bit, I found the inspectors normally
just marched anyone who had "forgotten" to validate their
Strippenkaart to the machine to do so, rather than issuing penalties
of any kind.

Neil
I thought they were getting rid of Strippenkaart in favour of Smart Cards.

On Tue, 07 Feb 2012 19:52:23 +0000, "
wrote:
I thought they were getting rid of Strippenkaart in favour of Smart
Cards.

They are. This was a good 5 years ago.

Neil

--
Neil Williams, Milton Keynes, UK

On Feb 3, 12:31*pm, Bruce wrote:

About 3.5% of journeys on German public transport are not paid for,
according to statistics from the Association of German Transport
Operators (VDV). In less compliant Berlin, it is 6%. That might not
sound a lot to the cynical visitor, but it's too much for the VDV,
which is demanding harsher punishments for fare dodgers: an increase
in on-the-spot fines from €40 to €60 (£50), and €120 for repeat
offenders.

That seems a good idea, so long as some discretion is possible for
genuine cases (e.g. if you forget your personalised[1] season ticket,
and get PFed, you can get the money back against an admin fee).

Generally, in an open system, the PF should be set at a level that
fare dodging doesn't cause a loss to the operator. If that's the
case, they can just stop worrying about it.

[1] Or smartcard, where it is possible to prove that it wasn't used.
That would require touching in to be mandatory even for season
tickets, though, with a PF of some sort (a lesser one, I guess) for
not doing.

Neil

Am 03.02.2012 13:06, schrieb Neil Williams:
the VDV,
which is demanding harsher punishments for fare dodgers: an increase
in on-the-spot fines from €40 to €60 (£50), and €120 for repeat
offenders.

That seems a good idea, so long as some discretion is possible for
genuine cases (e.g. if you forget your personalised[1] season ticket,

in that case, the law says, the penalty fare is reduced to 7 Euro, if
the personalized (season) ticket is shown within 14 days.

and get PFed, you can get the money back against an admin fee).

Generally, in an open system, the PF should be set at a level that
fare dodging doesn't cause a loss to the operator.If that's the
case, they can just stop worrying about it.

The real deterrent is not the amount of the possible penalty fare, but
the probability to get caught. But to increase this probability
increases the operating cost for the operator, while the increment in
fares and penalty fares diminshes.


Cheers,
L.W.

Bruce schrieb:


Not just in Britain, then!


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/feb/02/german-fare-dodgers-public-transport

German fare dodgers cause headache for public transport operators


Vienna action instead of German whining:

http://www.wienerlinien.at/eportal/e...ontentId/25239



Hans-Joachim

On Sun, 19 Feb 2012 03:25:53 +0000 (UTC) [UTC], Hans-Joachim Zierke
wrote:
Bruce schrieb:

Not just in Britain, then!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/feb/02/german-fare-dodgers-public-transport
German fare dodgers cause headache for public transport operators

Vienna action instead of German whining:
http://www.wienerlinien.at/eportal/e...ontentId/25239

Yeah, but WienerLinien carefully forget to mention that they announce
most of the routes on which they'll be checking tickets in advance, so
it's really only the stupid who get caught.
The actual level of "black riding", fare evasion, is almost certainly
higher than they choose to acknowledge.

If they were serious about fare evasion, they wouldn't announce any of
their checks - and they'd do a heck of a lot more of them.
(Despite their claims to checking a huge amount of tickets, I've never
seen a single ticket check on WL routes, including when I've travelled
on routes which have been announced on the website as being checked
that week).
--
Ross

Speaking for me, myself and I. Nobody else
- unless I make it clear that I am...

Ross schrieb:


Yeah, but WienerLinien carefully forget to mention that they announce
most of the routes on which they'll be checking tickets in advance, so
it's really only the stupid who get caught.

Do you really think, that most fare dodgers follow the announcements?
I don't think so.
Transport is secondary demand, and underinvolvement of the users is
typical. That's true for legal users, and no different for illegal users.
Since you work on the railroads, you might not sense the low importance
given to it by most users ... as long as everything works.


The actual level of "black riding", fare evasion, is almost certainly
higher than they choose to acknowledge.

The number /always/ mentions the fare dodgers, who get caught. The
percentage, who don't get caught, will be a lot higher on British buses
than on Wiener Linien.


If they were serious about fare evasion, they wouldn't announce any of
their checks - and they'd do a heck of a lot more of them.

They should do some more, but as a rule of thumb, bringing fare dodging
under 2% is unprofitable.


Hans-Joachim