On Feb 6, 5:22*pm, Neil Williams wrote:

It is absolutely nonsensical that you are penalised for a journey that
requires two buses, and you are penalised for changing from Tube/train
to bus.

Isn't it cheaper for the operator if your journey has one leg rather
than two? There's overhead from getting on/off - people getting on
buses, interchange capacity at stations, etc. It seems like a good
thing to me to encourage people at the margins to not change - though
the current fares structure isn't right for that either since it does
allow unlimited tube changes for free; and the "penalty" for changing
in the circumstances you describe is probably too high.

Ganesh

On 06/02/2012 17:22, Neil Williams wrote:
On Feb 6, 5:10 pm, wrote:
If good for London, why not every other major city in the UK?

Surely, we already have such tickets.

In London, they have the Railcard and that even covers the Croydon
Tramlink.

In Birmingham, they have something similar so do all the other PTEs.

What’s being proposed here that’s any different?

Single tickets as well, presumably.

It is absolutely nonsensical that you are penalised for a journey that
requires two buses, and you are penalised for changing from Tube/train
to bus.

I'm not sure that having a third TOC which runs trains into both
Liverpool Street and Marylebone (or whatever) would be necessary for
getting through bus tickets.

Getting NS to accept passengers kicked off DB buses which stop short
would be a good start.

There should be one zonal fares system for the entire network for
single fares, completely irrespective of what mode(s) of transport is/
are used. The one exception is that I'd allow for a "bus only"
variant to avoid Tube crowding in central London - but even then
changes should not be penalised.

Being able to change buses would be nice. But who cares about the bus
passengers who actually /pay/? Chances are they aren't the Poorest +
Most Vulnerable Members of Society.


--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

On Feb 6, 5:22*pm, Neil Williams wrote:

It is absolutely nonsensical that you are penalised for a journey that
requires two buses, and you are penalised for changing from Tube/train
to bus.

Well, only up to a point. PAYG Oyster caps make this less of a
problem than it otherwise would be. What you're proposing is
essentially a "transfer" system in which once you step onto the
transport system, you pay only one fare until you exit the system or
for the next hour or whatever; you could do that, but unless you're
assuming that you reduce the overall revenue by some considerable
amount, it'll involve raising the single fare (because single now
encompasses what were previously multiple rides) which is politically
tricky.

It also means that some realistic use-cases, such as "quickly nipping
over to X to buy a Y" become single journeys, unless you have some
amazingly complex rules on doubling back. Unless you add Oyster tap-
out to bus journeys, how would you detect "bus from home to shop, buy
thing, bus back?"

So if a Zone 1 to Zone 3 fare is, say, £4, it should be £4 whether
it's a direct Tube, or a bus, a Tube and another bus, or whatever.

OK, so bus Zone 4 to Zone 1, buy a book in Foyles, bus back to Zone 4
is charged as what? Show your working.

ian

"Neil Williams" wrote:
[...]
It is absolutely nonsensical that you are penalised for a journey that
requires two buses, and you are penalised for changing from Tube/train
to bus.

There should be one zonal fares system for the entire network for
single fares, completely irrespective of what mode(s) of transport is/
are used. The one exception is that I'd allow for a "bus only"
variant to avoid Tube crowding in central London - but even then
changes should not be penalised.

So if a Zone 1 to Zone 3 fare is, say, £4, it should be £4 whether
it's a direct Tube, or a bus, a Tube and another bus, or whatever.

(Leaving aside the difficulties of charging variable bus fares in an
environment now well accustomed to a flat fare...)

The last paragraph is where you totally lose the argument. No London bus
user is going to approve of (let alone vote for) a system whereby a GBP1.35
fare for a single bus journey suddenly becomes GBP4 (or whatever).

On 06/02/2012 17:22, Neil Williams wrote:
On Feb 6, 5:10 pm, wrote:
If good for London, why not every other major city in the UK?

Surely, we already have such tickets.

In London, they have the Railcard and that even covers the Croydon
Tramlink.

In Birmingham, they have something similar so do all the other PTEs.

What’s being proposed here that’s any different?

Single tickets as well, presumably.

It is absolutely nonsensical that you are penalised for a journey that
requires two buses, and you are penalised for changing from Tube/train
to bus.

There should be one zonal fares system for the entire network for
single fares, completely irrespective of what mode(s) of transport is/
are used. The one exception is that I'd allow for a "bus only"
variant to avoid Tube crowding in central London - but even then
changes should not be penalised.

So if a Zone 1 to Zone 3 fare is, say, £4, it should be £4 whether
it's a direct Tube, or a bus, a Tube and another bus, or whatever.

Neil

Whether or not I agree with the proposition, it is sometimes worthwhile
looking at the cost and practicality of implementing policies such as
this. If this could be achieved cheaply within the existing Oyster
system (by, for example, making X bus journeys within Y time a flat
fare) then fair enough. But if this will lead to huge system costs and,
for example, the need to touch OUT as well as in on buses, then it
should perhaps be consigned to the 'good idea, let's look at it again
when we refresh the technology' pile.

"allantracy" wrote in message
...

If good for London, why not every other major city in the UK?

Surely, we already have such tickets.

In London, they have the Railcard and that even covers the Croydon
Tramlink.

Er... they have the 'Travelcard' in London. A London Travelcard is
effectively a day pass though, so it is overkill if you only want to do a
single journey that uses two modes.

Railcards are a different beast, generally held to give discounts on rail
travel...

Paul S

In message
, at
08:10:48 on Mon, 6 Feb 2012, allantracy
remarked:
If good for London, why not every other major city in the UK?

Surely, we already have such tickets.

In London, they have the Railcard and that even covers the Croydon
Tramlink.

In Birmingham, they have something similar so do all the other PTEs.

In Nottingham there's the "Kangaroo" ticket[1] card which is accepted
by:

Bus - NCT (but not night buses), Trent Barton (not night buses),
Premiere, Yourbus, South Notts, Notts+Derby, Pathfinder, Stagecoach East
Midlands, Marshalls, Centrebus, Nottingham Community Transport, Veolia
and Arriva Midland.

Also Nottinghamshire, Nottingham City and Leicestershire Council
contracted buses coming into or around Nottingham - all Dunnline, Paul
Winson, Paul James, Doyles and Premiere Travel contracts.

Park and Ride bus services from Queens Drive and Racecourse

And not forgetting Medilink and Locallink, which are free anyway!

Tram - all services

Train - all services on East Midlands trains and Cross Country trains
within the boundary, valid at/from Attenborough, Beeston, Bulwell,
Carlton, Netherfield and Nottingham

[1] Another candidate for the "most embarrassing name" award.

--
Roland Perry

On Feb 6, 4:32*pm, 82045 wrote:

If good for London, why not every other major city in the UK?

Indeed it is - but the (regulated) framework in London makes it easier
to implement, because London bus operators cannot damage the concept
by selling non-network tickets.

Neil

In message , at 17:34:41 on
Mon, 6 Feb 2012, Paul Corfield remarked:
The Mayor has launched a proposal for further rail services to come
under TfL control.

http://www.london.gov.uk/mayor%E2%80...-services-lon\
don

The proposal centres on taking over the local "West Anglia" routes out
of Liverpool Street

Only those to Chingford, Enfield and Hertford East. I was looking
forward to Cambridge being in Zone 6 (with bargain fares as a result),
but this seems unlikely.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 20:00:00 on
Mon, 6 Feb 2012, Paul Corfield remarked:
The Mayor has launched a proposal for further rail services to come
under TfL control.

http://www.london.gov.uk/mayor%E2%80...-services-lon\
don

The proposal centres on taking over the local "West Anglia" routes out
of Liverpool Street

Only those to Chingford, Enfield and Hertford East.

I did say "local" routes - I don't think anyone can reasonably say
Cambridge or Stansted are local to London.

I didn't catch on to the emphasis on *local* WA routes.

The report says that the outer limit of stations aligns with the
Mayor's wider boundary.

Roughly inside the M25 I suppose.

I was looking forward to Cambridge being in Zone 6 (with bargain fares
as a result), but this seems unlikely.

I guess you can dream but I can't imagine the good burghers of
Cambridge would want a London Mayor controlling their train services.

If it meant getting to London on a Z6 travelcard, I don't think they'd
complain.
--
Roland Perry