TheOneKEA wrote:
Dave Arquati wrote in message ...

TheOneKEA wrote:

"PS" wrote in message ...


Just a passer-by curious Hong-Konger's words:

I am always curious about why there's no lines like "Hyper Outer Circle"
nowadays. Maybe linking up Finchley, Hendon, Neasden and reaching
Willesden may be a funny idea after all.


Are you suggesting something like the Circle Line in Zones 3 and 4?

Even though such a line would be completely impossible to do, I could
see it running in a complete circle around London, starting at
Richmond and passing through Wimbledon, Vauxhall, Surrey Quays,
Mudchute, Canning Town, Barking, Leytonstone, Walthamstow Central,
Wood Green, East Finchley, Brent Cross, Wembley Park, South Kenton,
Alperton, and Hounslow Central, and eventually returning to Richmond.

But it would be almost impossible to do.


Not at all... once the ELL extensions are complete (that is, of course,
if they ever get started properly) then there will be an extremely easy
route available via Canada Water, Hoxton, Highbury, Camden Road, West
Hampstead, Willesden Jcn, Olympia, Clapham Jcn, Clapham High St, Queens
Rd Peckham and back to Canada Water. There is a reverse at Clapham Junction.

I doubt they'll ever actually run it as a full circle though. The ELLE
service pattern already includes Clapham Jcn - Canada Water - Highbury.
(I think the ELLE along with the NLL, WLL and Goblin are all meant to be
combined into one Orbirail franchise in the future).


Wow, interesting. It would be a great way to avoid Zone 1 during the
rush hour, and it would be a godsend if the Olympics ever came to
London.

In fact the powers that be believe that the Jubilee line will not be
able to cope during the Olympics if the ELL extensions are not completed.


Once the East London line is connected to the old North London NR
route, and services are running between Highbury & Islington thru
Whitechapel to Canada Water and beyond, how much longer would it take
for a Hyper Circle Line to appear?

Brad

Once the ELL extensions are complete, the main obstacles to a full
orbital service are to do with train pathing, i.e. trying to find room
to fit orbital services between the passenger trains and large number of
freight trains using both the NLL between Willesden and Highbury, and
the WLL between Willesden and Clapham. Both these lines would require
signalling upgrades and possibly extra tracks (although according to the
Olympic bid, the current 4 trains per hour on the NLL will be increased
to 10 tph, which must require these improvements anyway!)

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7

On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 12:59:24 -0000, "Dave Liney"
wrote:

[northern line fixed service pattern]

Are you seriously suggesting that no-one living on the Edgware branch wants
to go to the West End, and that those on the High Barnet branch only want to
go to the City?

I doubt very much that is the suggestion.

People don't arrange their lives around the through running of the Northern
Line.

But it was fascinating to watch how travel patterns did change when the
Central Line was shut for weeks. First of all there was a massive shift
to the obvious alternative routes such as the Victoria Line at
Walthamstow. However over time the initial massive changes smoothed
themselves out as people changed travel times, tried different options
etc.

My travel times moved by over 2 hours - to a much earlier arrival at
work in order to avoid the worst delays. They haven't changed that much
since - maybe by only 30 mins or so.

I'd accept the Central Line closure is an extreme example and changes
were partly dictated by the structure of the replacement bus services
but it was nonetheless very interesting to observe if very irritating
for all those who were inconvenienced.

The opening of the Jubilee Line extension and its interchange options
have also led to big changes in travel patterns in East London. Ditto
for the Lewisham extension of the DLR.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

TheOneKEA wrote in message
om...
Dave Arquati wrote in message
...
TheOneKEA wrote:
"PS" wrote in message
...

Just a passer-by curious Hong-Konger's words:

I am always curious about why there's no lines like "Hyper Outer
Circle"
nowadays. Maybe linking up Finchley, Hendon, Neasden and reaching
Willesden may be a funny idea after all.


Are you suggesting something like the Circle Line in Zones 3 and 4?

Even though such a line would be completely impossible to do, I could
see it running in a complete circle around London, starting at
Richmond and passing through Wimbledon, Vauxhall, Surrey Quays,
Mudchute, Canning Town, Barking, Leytonstone, Walthamstow Central,
Wood Green, East Finchley, Brent Cross, Wembley Park, South Kenton,
Alperton, and Hounslow Central, and eventually returning to Richmond.

But it would be almost impossible to do.

Not at all... once the ELL extensions are complete (that is, of course,
if they ever get started properly) then there will be an extremely easy
route available via Canada Water, Hoxton, Highbury, Camden Road, West
Hampstead, Willesden Jcn, Olympia, Clapham Jcn, Clapham High St, Queens
Rd Peckham and back to Canada Water. There is a reverse at Clapham
Junction.

I doubt they'll ever actually run it as a full circle though. The ELLE
service pattern already includes Clapham Jcn - Canada Water - Highbury.
(I think the ELLE along with the NLL, WLL and Goblin are all meant to be
combined into one Orbirail franchise in the future).

Wow, interesting. It would be a great way to avoid Zone 1 during the
rush hour, and it would be a godsend if the Olympics ever came to
London.

Actually I do have a friend who is studying in Middlesex University in
London
and he usually uses Northern Line to get to the city. However, he
complained
that the fare's far too high and I started to think is there any Londoners
ever trying
to commute between different places in zone 3 (or beyond) and MUST pass
zone 1 due to insuffcient non-radial services. NLR could completely avoid
zone 1,
but if a even greater circle present, maybe one day these commuters are able
to
avoid zone 2 either!

Just another foolish enough and curious question: If I want to get from
Hammersmith to Willesden, can I avoid zone 1 by taking a bus or so?
Of course I won't take H&C and change Bakerloo at Paddington (Too
foolish for any transport enthusiasts even though they only had a glimpse
on the London tube map)

Once the East London line is connected to the old North London NR
route, and services are running between Highbury & Islington thru
Whitechapel to Canada Water and beyond, how much longer would it take
for a Hyper Circle Line to appear?

Brad

Actually I have heard some services to Willesden using ELL, is that true?
However, would the existing A-stock fleet enough for services on 2 big
lines? And is the entire ELL would appear on a future tube map with
both orange and outline (Network Rail lines) livery?

On Wed, 21 Jan 2004, PS wrote:

Actually I have heard some services to Willesden using ELL, is that
true? However, would the existing A-stock fleet enough for services on 2
big lines? And is the entire ELL would appear on a future tube map with
both orange and outline (Network Rail lines) livery?

AFAIK, when the ELLE is finished, the line will be handed over to Network
Rail and run as a normal railway line, like the NLL (ie badly!).

On which point, which franchise would the ELL be part of? If it came into
Silverlink's hands, they really could run trains from west London; NLL
trains could turn off in Dalston and head south.

tom

--
No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man. -- Heraclitus

In article ,
(Sam Holloway) wrote:

You
only need look at, for example, provincial towns and cities [1] where
parking is difficult to see the exodus of shoppers to more convenient
facilities.

So as daft as it sounds, I think really do organise themselves around
train service patterns!

Sam

[1] I'd cite Cambridge as an example (rather quiet on the run-up to
Christmas) although I have no figures to back this up, and with many
avid Cam

I may be slow in responding but the evidence of the shops' turnover is
firmly against you!

Colin Rosenstiel
Cambridge