"Bruce":
The Metropolitan Railway was originally built (from a junction with
the GWR at Paddington to Farringdon Street) to mixed standard and
broad gauge (7' 0¼") and was initially operated by the GWR using GWR
rolling stock. This is one reason why the Met has been able to
operate larger trains than standard.

Peter Masson:
Operation by the GWR with broad gauge stock lasted for 8 months.

Even less: 10 January to 10 August 1863, inclusive.

The GWR and Met then fell out, and the GWR gave 9 days notice that
they'd stop working the line, expecting that the Met would give in
and allow the GWR to take them over.

The dispute was basically over pathing rights. As Bruce said, the Met
was built with a track connection to the GWR, and this was intended
not only for moving stock on and off the line, but also for through
suburban trains from the GWR to Farringdon (and Moorgate when the line
was extended).

But the GNR also had a track connection at King's Cross, and was also
interested in running trains to Farringdon. And the Met realized that
with their own trains on the line as well, it would be over capacity.

Instead of compromising on the number of through trains, the GWR
decided to force the issue.

Instead the Met borrowed standard gauge stock from the Great Northern
and worked the line themselves.

Right. The L&NWR also supplied some passenger cars. But whereas
the GWR had used purpose-built condensing steam engines, the GNR had
to settle for running a flexible pipe to the tender to condense the
steam there.

After this, the Met then ordered their own condensing engines and
their own rolling stock, which replaced the GNR's within a couple
of years.

Mixed gauge lasted for some time (Did the GWR use it for broad gauge
goods?),

I don't know, but they did run broad-gauge passenger trains. After the
GWR lost the battle for control, they did come to an agreement, and
quickly. Both GWR and GNR trains began running to through Farringdon
on 1 October 1863, and later to Moorgate. The last GWR broad-gauge
service was on 14 March 1869.

and when the Widened Lines were opened they too were provided with
mixed gauge track, though it is uncertain whether broad gauge trains
ever used the Widened Lines.

You sure about that?

The Widened Lines are, of course, what is now the part of Thameslink
that runs alongside the Met/Circle/H&C, plus the now closed branch
to Moorgate. They were created to allow capacity for trains running
through between the GNR or Midland and the LC&DR (like Thameslink)
and from these railways to Moorgate. But none of the books I checked
mention whether mixed-gauge track was installed; as you imply, it
would not have been needed.
--
Mark Brader "I'm not good in groups. It's difficult to
Toronto work in a group when you're omnipotent."
"Deja Q", ST:TNG, Richard Danus

My text in this article is in the public domain.

(Mark Brader) wrote:

"Bruce":
The Metropolitan Railway was originally built (from a junction with
the GWR at Paddington to Farringdon Street) to mixed standard and
broad gauge (7' 0¼") and was initially operated by the GWR using GWR
rolling stock. This is one reason why the Met has been able to
operate larger trains than standard.

Peter Masson:
Operation by the GWR with broad gauge stock lasted for 8 months.

Even less: 10 January to 10 August 1863, inclusive.

The GWR and Met then fell out, and the GWR gave 9 days notice that
they'd stop working the line, expecting that the Met would give in
and allow the GWR to take them over.

The dispute was basically over pathing rights. As Bruce said, the Met
was built with a track connection to the GWR, and this was intended
not only for moving stock on and off the line, but also for through
suburban trains from the GWR to Farringdon (and Moorgate when the line
was extended).

But the GNR also had a track connection at King's Cross, and was also
interested in running trains to Farringdon. And the Met realized that
with their own trains on the line as well, it would be over capacity.

Instead of compromising on the number of through trains, the GWR
decided to force the issue.

Instead the Met borrowed standard gauge stock from the Great Northern
and worked the line themselves.

Right. The L&NWR also supplied some passenger cars. But whereas
the GWR had used purpose-built condensing steam engines, the GNR had
to settle for running a flexible pipe to the tender to condense the
steam there.

After this, the Met then ordered their own condensing engines and
their own rolling stock, which replaced the GNR's within a couple
of years.

Mixed gauge lasted for some time (Did the GWR use it for broad gauge
goods?),

I don't know, but they did run broad-gauge passenger trains. After the
GWR lost the battle for control, they did come to an agreement, and
quickly. Both GWR and GNR trains began running to through Farringdon
on 1 October 1863, and later to Moorgate. The last GWR broad-gauge
service was on 14 March 1869.

and when the Widened Lines were opened they too were provided with
mixed gauge track, though it is uncertain whether broad gauge trains
ever used the Widened Lines.

You sure about that?

The Widened Lines are, of course, what is now the part of Thameslink
that runs alongside the Met/Circle/H&C, plus the now closed branch
to Moorgate. They were created to allow capacity for trains running
through between the GNR or Midland and the LC&DR (like Thameslink)
and from these railways to Moorgate. But none of the books I checked
mention whether mixed-gauge track was installed; as you imply, it
would not have been needed.


Thanks Mark, interesting background.

"Mark Brader" wrote

The Widened Lines are, of course, what is now the part of Thameslink
that runs alongside the Met/Circle/H&C, plus the now closed branch
to Moorgate. They were created to allow capacity for trains running
through between the GNR or Midland and the LC&DR (like Thameslink)
and from these railways to Moorgate. But none of the books I checked
mention whether mixed-gauge track was installed; as you imply, it
would not have been needed.

H P White (Regional History of the Railways of Great Britain, Vol 3, Greater
London) states that mixed gauge was provided at first on the Widened Line,
and implies that GWR Broad Gauge trains used the Farringdon to Moorgate
section. He also states that mixed gauge was provided (but may never have
been used) between Kings cross and Farringdon. Was there actually a
connection between the Met west of Kings Cross and the Widened Lines? The
tunnel was built, and a track laid through it (eastbound) in 1926 - but had
there been track in it in the 1860s?

White does appear to have consulted original documents, though he does not
explain which document led to which of his statements.

Peter

Mark Brader:
The Widened Lines... none of the books I checked
mention whether mixed-gauge track was installed; as you imply, it
would not have been needed.

Peter Masson:
H P White (Regional History of the Railways of Great Britain, Vol 3, Greater
London) states that mixed gauge was provided at first...

Hmm, that is one of the books I checked, but maybe I missed something.
I'll look again later. I have the 1987 edition, in case this varies.

Was there actually a
connection between the Met west of Kings Cross and the Widened Lines? The
tunnel was built, and a track laid through it (eastbound) in 1926 - but had
there been track in it in the 1860s?

Now there you have me.

The source I'd expect to be best for this is "London's Metropolitan
Railway" by Jackson, but I'd have to go to the library to see that.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "Pleasant dreams!"
| "I'll dream of Canada." -- THE SUSPECT

My text in this article is in the public domain.

On 01/03/2012 21:25, Mark Brader wrote:
Mark Brader:
The Widened Lines... none of the books I checked
mention whether mixed-gauge track was installed; as you imply, it
would not have been needed.

Peter Masson:
H P White (Regional History of the Railways of Great Britain, Vol 3, Greater
London) states that mixed gauge was provided at first...


In Charles E Lee's The Metropolitan Line there is a photo dated Mar 1866
showing the widened lines in use at Farringdon. The tracks in
foreground are laid with mixed gauge track.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read, substitute trains for rail.
Railway Miscellany at http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail

"Graeme Wall" wrote

In Charles E Lee's The Metropolitan Line there is a photo dated Mar 1866
showing the widened lines in use at Farringdon. The tracks in foreground
are laid with mixed gauge track.

At that date the Widened Lines only ran from Farringdon to Aldersgate
(Barbican) They were extended to Moorgate on 1 Jyly 1866, and westward to
Kings Cross early in 1868. The Snow Hill link from Farringdon to Ludgate
Hill opened at the beginning of 1866, and the third side of the triangle
from Snow Hill to Aldersgate came into use in September 1871. Broad Gauge
GWR trains ran to Moorgate until 14 March 1869, but it is unclear whether
they used the original Met lines, crossed to the Widened Lines at
Farringdon, or even crossed to the Widened Lines at Kings Cross (from early
1868) - if there was actually a connection from the Met to the Widened Lines
at Kings Cross.

Peter

On 01/03/2012 22:50, Peter Masson wrote:


"Graeme Wall" wrote

In Charles E Lee's The Metropolitan Line there is a photo dated Mar
1866 showing the widened lines in use at Farringdon. The tracks in
foreground are laid with mixed gauge track.

At that date the Widened Lines only ran from Farringdon to Aldersgate
(Barbican) They were extended to Moorgate on 1 Jyly 1866, and westward
to Kings Cross early in 1868. The Snow Hill link from Farringdon to
Ludgate Hill opened at the beginning of 1866, and the third side of the
triangle from Snow Hill to Aldersgate came into use in September 1871.
Broad Gauge GWR trains ran to Moorgate until 14 March 1869, but it is
unclear whether they used the original Met lines, crossed to the Widened
Lines at Farringdon, or even crossed to the Widened Lines at Kings Cross
(from early 1868) - if there was actually a connection from the Met to
the Widened Lines at Kings Cross.


Unfortunately Lee doesn't go into any detail on that subject. Hardly
surprising as it was one of LTs 25p booklets!


--
Graeme Wall
This account not read, substitute trains for rail.
Railway Miscellany at http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail

On Thu, 1 Mar 2012 22:50:37 -0000
"Peter Masson" wrote:
At that date the Widened Lines only ran from Farringdon to Aldersgate
(Barbican) They were extended to Moorgate on 1 Jyly 1866, and westward to
Kings Cross early in 1868. The Snow Hill link from Farringdon to Ludgate
Hill opened at the beginning of 1866, and the third side of the triangle
from Snow Hill to Aldersgate came into use in September 1871. Broad Gauge
GWR trains ran to Moorgate until 14 March 1869, but it is unclear whether
they used the original Met lines, crossed to the Widened Lines at
Farringdon, or even crossed to the Widened Lines at Kings Cross (from early
1868) - if there was actually a connection from the Met to the Widened Lines
at Kings Cross.

I don't know if this is what you're talking about , but just west of the
eastbound met line platform at kings cross there is a disused tunnel coming
from the north that joins the main running line.

B2003

On 02/03/2012 09:38, d wrote:
On Thu, 1 Mar 2012 22:50:37 -0000
"Peter wrote:
At that date the Widened Lines only ran from Farringdon to Aldersgate
(Barbican) They were extended to Moorgate on 1 Jyly 1866, and westward to
Kings Cross early in 1868. The Snow Hill link from Farringdon to Ludgate
Hill opened at the beginning of 1866, and the third side of the triangle
from Snow Hill to Aldersgate came into use in September 1871. Broad Gauge
GWR trains ran to Moorgate until 14 March 1869, but it is unclear whether
they used the original Met lines, crossed to the Widened Lines at
Farringdon, or even crossed to the Widened Lines at Kings Cross (from early
1868) - if there was actually a connection from the Met to the Widened Lines
at Kings Cross.

I don't know if this is what you're talking about , but just west of the
eastbound met line platform at kings cross there is a disused tunnel coming
from the north that joins the main running line.


Is that the projected connection to the Midland line at St Pancras?
AFAIK the tunnels were built but never used.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read, substitute trains for rail.
Railway Miscellany at http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail

Mark Brader:
The Widened Lines... none of the books I checked
mention whether mixed-gauge track was installed; as you imply, it
would not have been needed.

Peter Masson:
H P White (Regional History of the Railways of Great Britain, Vol 3,
Greater London) states that mixed gauge was provided at first...

By the way, I did recheck my copy and this isn't in it (unless it's in
some non-obvious place). But...

Graeme Wall:
In Charles E Lee's The Metropolitan Line there is a photo dated Mar 1866
showing the widened lines in use at Farringdon. The tracks in
foreground are laid with mixed gauge track.

....that would be definitive. Thanks, Graeme.
--
Mark Brader | "...where did they get the sunlight in such a hurry? I know
| it can be delivered in about eight minutes, but there must
Toronto | be lots of paperwork involved." -- Michael Wares

My text in this article is in the public domain.