On Mar 6, 6:14*pm, D DB 90001 wrote:

I agree that it would be costly, but not as costly as a new circle line. .. . . .

In addition, building a new line would require a lot of new stations,

Agreed all this would be very expensive and disruptive. Removal of all
the flat junctions on the existing Circle is just not practical, nor
do I believe it is necessary. Some selective work might be worthwhile
however. When I worked in London and used the line regularly, the
Junction at Baker Street often seemed particularly difficult to
manage. Lack of capacity at the Aldgate terminus seemed to force
immediate turnback of Metropolitan trains arriving there, resulting in
convoys of met trains waiting on the westbound at Baker Street to
access platform 2 whilst platform 6 remained resolutely empty for
extended periods of time as various H&Cs & Circles sat patiently at
the back of the queue. This might be addressed by a larger terminal
for the met, allowing better ordering and regulation of the westbound
flow, and with the demise of Thameslink to Moorgate I believe this
opportunity has now arisen to establish such a station at Moorgate.
The flat junction conflict at Baker Street is perhaps less of a
problem in the sense that there is potential eastbound Circle/H&C path
across the junction behind each of these westbound mets, but each
train approaching from Edgware Rd is severely limited in approach
speed because of the short overlap distance at the end of platform 5,
and this impacts capacity. A grade separation here could improve
matters for both the H&C & Circle lines.

Anyway purely for my own interest I've drawn up some of these ideas,
and any constructive comments from the group would be most welcome!

See my proposals here -

http://www.townend.me/files/circlenorth.pdf

--
Mark

"mark townend" wrote in message
...
On Mar 6, 6:14 pm, D DB 90001 wrote:

I agree that it would be costly, but not as costly as a new circle line. .
. . .

In addition, building a new line would require a lot of new stations,

Agreed all this would be very expensive and disruptive. Removal of all
the flat junctions [......snip....]

Anyway purely for my own interest I've drawn up some of these ideas,
and any constructive comments from the group would be most welcome!

See my proposals here -

http://www.townend.me/files/circlenorth.pdf

With a spelling error, and a punctuation error, in the very first sentence
of that document, I cannot see anyone with clout bothering to read any
further, no matter how laudable the prposals seem to be.

"Ian" wrote in message
...

"mark townend" wrote in message
...
On Mar 6, 6:14 pm, D DB 90001 wrote:

I agree that it would be costly, but not as costly as a new circle line.
. . . .

In addition, building a new line would require a lot of new stations,

Agreed all this would be very expensive and disruptive. Removal of all
the flat junctions [......snip....]

Anyway purely for my own interest I've drawn up some of these ideas,
and any constructive comments from the group would be most welcome!

See my proposals here -

http://www.townend.me/files/circlenorth.pdf

With a spelling error, and a punctuation error, in the very first sentence
of that document, I cannot see anyone with clout bothering to read any
further, no matter how laudable the proposals seem to be.

On Mar 8, 9:49*am, "Ian" wrote:
"mark townend" wrote in message

...
On Mar 6, 6:14 pm, D DB 90001 wrote:



I agree that it would be costly, but not as costly as a new circle line.. .
. . .
In addition, building a new line would require a lot of new stations,

Agreed all this would be very expensive and disruptive. Removal of all
the flat junctions [......snip....]

Anyway purely for my own interest I've drawn up some of these ideas,
and any constructive comments from the group would be most welcome!

See my proposals here -

http://www.townend.me/files/circlenorth.pdf

With a spelling error, and a punctuation error, in the very first sentence
of that document, I cannot see anyone with clout bothering to read any
further, no matter how laudable the prposals seem to be.

Thank you for checking my document. I've made changes & uploaded a new
version.
http://www.townend.me/files/circlenorth.pdf

--
Mark

"mark townend" wrote in message
...
On Mar 8, 9:49 am, "Ian" wrote:
"mark townend" wrote in message

...
On Mar 6, 6:14 pm, D DB 90001 wrote:



I agree that it would be costly, but not as costly as a new circle line.
.
. . .
In addition, building a new line would require a lot of new stations,

Agreed all this would be very expensive and disruptive. Removal of all
the flat junctions [......snip....]

Anyway purely for my own interest I've drawn up some of these ideas,
and any constructive comments from the group would be most welcome!

See my proposals here -

http://www.townend.me/files/circlenorth.pdf

With a spelling error, and a punctuation error, in the very first sentence
of that document, I cannot see anyone with clout bothering to read any
further, no matter how laudable the prposals seem to be.

Thank you for checking my document. I've made changes & uploaded a new
version.
http://www.townend.me/files/circlenorth.pdf

---------------------------------------------

Better. Try again. Hint: remember a shirt has ONE Collar and TWO Sleeves.

--
Ian

On Mar 8, 3:23*pm, "Ian" wrote:

Better. Try again. Hint: remember a shirt has ONE Collar and TWO Sleeves.

Revision 2
http://www.townend.me/files/circlenorth.pdf

--
Mark

"mark townend" wrote in message
...
On Mar 8, 3:23 pm, "Ian" wrote:

Better. Try again. Hint: remember a shirt has ONE Collar and TWO Sleeves.

Revision 2
http://www.townend.me/files/circlenorth.pdf


I suspect it may be necessary to do Revision 3..... )
--
Ian

"mark townend" wrote in message
...

Anyway purely for my own interest I've drawn up some of these ideas,
and any constructive comments from the group would be most welcome!

See my proposals here -

http://www.townend.me/files/circlenorth.pdf

The main problem seems to be that any capacity you gain by grade separating
Baker Street Jn, would be lost by the new conflicts at Moorgate, where all
terminating Mets have to cross over in front of westbound Circle/H&Cs.

Peter Smyth

On Mar 8, 6:24*pm, "Peter Smyth" wrote:
"mark townend" *wrote in message

...

Anyway purely for my own interest I've drawn up some of these ideas,
and any constructive comments from the group would be most welcome!

See my proposals here -

http://www.townend.me/files/circlenorth.pdf

The main problem seems to be that any capacity you gain by grade separating
Baker Street Jn, would be lost by the new conflicts at Moorgate, where all
terminating Mets have to cross over in front of westbound Circle/H&Cs.

Peter Smyth

Great diagram!

One comment: I initially found the Aldgate diagram hard to comprehend
not being familiar with the junction names and north not being top of
the map. Would the diagram be easier to understand if the top of the
diagram was north?

And two questions:

1. What are the benefits of the changes at Paddington?

2. Could you not also implement grade separation at Moorgate to avoid
conflicts? Eg a new tunnel connecting platform 2 to the lines to
platforms 3 and 4 at Barbican?

Regards

On Thu, Mar 08, 2012 at 06:24:42PM -0000, Peter Smyth wrote:
"mark townend" wrote:
http://www.townend.me/files/circlenorth.pdf
The main problem seems to be that any capacity you gain by grade separating
Baker Street Jn, would be lost by the new conflicts at Moorgate, where all
terminating Mets have to cross over in front of westbound Circle/H&Cs.

The bit of the Metropolitan line east of Baker Street would seem to be a
lot less useful if it terminates at Moorgate instead of running through
Liverpool Street, as more people will have to change trains, so if
you're going to cut it back, why not cut it right back to Baker Street
to eliminate the conflicts at the junction there?

Mind you, I'd want *detailed* data on passenger flows before proposing
anything like that!

--
David Cantrell | Enforcer, South London Linguistic Massive

People from my sort of background needed grammar schools to
compete with children from privileged homes like ... Tony Benn
-- Margaret Thatcher