Part 2:

The pub and toilets beneath are landside - the plans issued last week
suggest the toilets are accessible from the passage between Platforms
8&9 but that's not the case. That passage is blocked by some gates,
although some workers who came past while I was there managed to open
the gate with a well aimed kick.

There's a temporary roped-off passageway between the original concourse
to the new one. This bypasses the 'entry' gates to platforms 0-8 to the
south, and is quite insecure (all you would need to do is duck under a
rope).

The main escalators from the NTH to the concourse are hidden round the
back (by the outer wall) and I'm not surprised some people have failed
to find them from the concourse. Those escalators are extremely disjoint
from the ones up to the mezzanine.

All the toilets are 30p (beneath the pub and at the southern end of the
mezzanine), and I don't understand how the Prezzo bar complies with the
law in this respect. The pub has its own free toilets on both floors.

The pub claims to be the biggest on railway premises, and that may well
be true. It has numerous rooms on two floors. There are views of both
platforms 0-8 and 9-11 from the first floor (albeit to get near the
windows you have to get past tables and chairs arranged against the
wall), and views of the roof of platforms 9-11 from the second floor.
The part of the second floor which might overlook 0-8 is the kitchen.

Service in the pub is very slow, even with one bar person per customer.
They seem to have managed to provide tills that require a dozen
unfamiliar key-presses to log each drink, few of which can be served
without a trip to the other end of the bar. If someone pays by card that
adds another substantial delay. I didn't ask if they accepted "Paywave".

If the pub does off-sales (it's licenced to apparently) then it wasn't
clear they had anything other than bottled beer (which you'd have to ask
them not to open I suppose).

The bridge from the mezzanine to the main shed is not very obvious, and
I would only expect regular travellers to know it was there. When I used
the bridge the signs at the top of my trains platform 2/3 were blank, so
you'd better remember which platform it was you were heading for.

My train to Leeds was announced 12 minutes before departure.

The escalator down to platform 8 was roped off (broken already?) so I
went down in the lift (to nose around). To get back I waited until
someone came down in the lift, then took it on the way up.

When I arrived in the morning I noticed some stairs from platform 1 to
the bridge with a sign claiming there was no access to other platforms.
That's obviously false as if you went up the stairs you could then
descend into any of the others in the main shed.

As reported in another thread, the main departure board have a summary
of "all arrivals" and "all departures", but fail to say which is which.

The main concourse is helpfully large, and the retail is all around the
edge so it's quite clean. Spoilt by most of the escalators (up and down)
being hidden away. Standing in the middle of the concourse, it wasn't
clear how to get to the mezzanine, there should be an escalator right
there.

--
Roland Perry

On 22/03/2012 20:21, Roland Perry wrote:

All the toilets are 30p (beneath the pub and at the southern end of the
mezzanine), and I don't understand how the Prezzo bar complies with the
law in this respect. The pub has its own free toilets on both floors.

What law?

There are lots stations with catering and only paid-for bogs, and others
with catering and no bogs at all. I looked this up with regard to a
then-new coffee place on West Croydon station, and it seemed that it is
myth that toilets have to be provided where there is food and drink on
sale, however local authorities can choose to require them.

--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

In message , at
20:41:09 on Thu, 22 Mar 2012, Arthur Figgis
remarked:
All the toilets are 30p (beneath the pub and at the southern end of the
mezzanine), and I don't understand how the Prezzo bar complies with the
law in this respect. The pub has its own free toilets on both floors.

What law?

There are lots stations with catering and only paid-for bogs, and
others with catering and no bogs at all. I looked this up with regard
to a then-new coffee place on West Croydon station, and it seemed that
it is myth that toilets have to be provided where there is food and
drink on sale, however local authorities can choose to require them.

I'm fairly sure there's a law that says you must provide free toilets if
you serve alcohol - and this has been floated as the reason why St
Pancras toilets are free (the champagne bar etc).

However I'm happy to revert to a legal newsgroup to discuss if this is
an urban legend.
--
Roland Perry

On Thu, 22 Mar 2012 21:15:06 +0000, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at
20:41:09 on Thu, 22 Mar 2012, Arthur Figgis
remarked:
All the toilets are 30p (beneath the pub and at the southern end of the
mezzanine), and I don't understand how the Prezzo bar complies with the
law in this respect. The pub has its own free toilets on both floors.

What law?

There are lots stations with catering and only paid-for bogs, and
others with catering and no bogs at all. I looked this up with regard
to a then-new coffee place on West Croydon station, and it seemed that
it is myth that toilets have to be provided where there is food and
drink on sale, however local authorities can choose to require them.

I'm fairly sure there's a law that says you must provide free toilets if
you serve alcohol - and this has been floated as the reason why St
Pancras toilets are free (the champagne bar etc).

Maybe a standard planning requirement rather than something actually
written into statute ? e.g. :-
"The City Council has adopted a standard for the provision of sanitary
accommodation in places to which the public resort which are either:
(i) New premises, or
(ii) premises undergoing conversion or alteration. "
[http://www.canterbury.gov.uk/authori....pdfCanterbury
City Council - Provision of toilets in commercial premises open to the
public]

While the provision of toilets for staff has a legal reference, those
for the public do not.
However I'm happy to revert to a legal newsgroup to discuss if this is
an urban legend.

"Charles Ellson" wrote

Maybe a standard planning requirement

or a standard licensing requirement which could be added if the licensee
wanted a change in the licence, e.g. to allow for longer opening hours. The
Licensing Act applies if the premises serve alcohol or 'late night
refreshments' after, IIRC, 11 pm, even if they don't sell alcohol.

Peter

In article ,
(Peter Masson) wrote:

"Charles Ellson" wrote

Maybe a standard planning requirement

or a standard licensing requirement which could be added if the
licensee wanted a change in the licence, e.g. to allow for longer
opening hours. The Licensing Act applies if the premises serve
alcohol or 'late night refreshments' after, IIRC, 11 pm, even if they
don't sell alcohol.

You are correct. A licence is required for late night refreshments after
23:00.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Once upon a time, Peter Masson wrote:
"Charles Ellson" wrote

Maybe a standard planning requirement

or a standard licensing requirement which could be added if the
licensee wanted a change in the licence, e.g. to allow for longer
opening hours. The Licensing Act applies if the premises serve alcohol
or 'late night refreshments' after, IIRC, 11 pm, even if they don't
sell alcohol.

Plus only a complete lunatic (or a particularly twisted sadist) would
design anywhere that sold alcohol for consumption on the premises
without toilets - the consequences for the surrounding area would be
horrific.

TBH I don't see why people object to pay bogs, it's not as if 30p is
exactly going to break anyone's bank and paid-for loos tend to be vastly
cleaner and better maintained, and rather less likely to be occupied by
undesirables, than free ones. Free loos within paid areas (as in
trackside or in pubs, beyond the barriers in cinemas, etc) make sense.
But public ones are just nicer when there's a fee - gives the owners
both a revenue stream and an incentive to keep things civilised.

--
- The Iron Jelloid

On Fri, 23 Mar 2012 02:35:40 +0000, The Iron Jelloid
wrote:

Once upon a time, Peter Masson wrote:
"Charles Ellson" wrote

Maybe a standard planning requirement

or a standard licensing requirement which could be added if the
licensee wanted a change in the licence, e.g. to allow for longer
opening hours. The Licensing Act applies if the premises serve alcohol
or 'late night refreshments' after, IIRC, 11 pm, even if they don't
sell alcohol.

ICBW but I don't think licensing authorities have as much freedom to
impose non-statutary requirements as they used to.

Plus only a complete lunatic (or a particularly twisted sadist) would
design anywhere that sold alcohol for consumption on the premises
without toilets - the consequences for the surrounding area would be
horrific.

Such consequences being among standard matters used to object to a
licence even when there are sufficient bogs.

TBH I don't see why people object to pay bogs, it's not as if 30p is
exactly going to break anyone's bank and paid-for loos tend to be vastly
cleaner and better maintained, and rather less likely to be occupied by
undesirables, than free ones. Free loos within paid areas (as in
trackside or in pubs, beyond the barriers in cinemas, etc) make sense.
But public ones are just nicer when there's a fee - gives the owners
both a revenue stream and an incentive to keep things civilised.

I'm fairly sure there's a law that says you must provide free toilets if
you serve alcohol - and this has been floated as the reason why St
Pancras toilets are free (the champagne bar etc).

However I'm happy to revert to a legal newsgroup to discuss if this is
an urban legend.

NO! Don't involve them!

In message , at 02:35:40 on Fri,
23 Mar 2012, The Iron Jelloid
remarked:
TBH I don't see why people object to pay bogs, it's not as if 30p is
exactly going to break anyone's bank

It's whether you have the 30p on you or not (ie no use if all you have
is a 50p). Although the loos at Kings Cross have change machines
outside, so that's OK until they break.

One of the two turnstyles had broken already. "Sorry for the
inconvenience" a sign on it quipped.
--
Roland Perry