In message , at 11:44:39 on
Sun, 25 Mar 2012, Paul Corfield remarked:

I'm only just catching up on the series, and watched the one about
revenue inspectors yesterday. Doing some quick sums on the back of an
envelope, it seems it costs them about as much to run the revenue
inspectors as the fares they are failing to collect (£20m a year). In
any event that's 1% of their turnover, and not the complete financial
disaster they portray it as. Although I agree there's an element of
"encouraging the others" so you have to been seen to be doing
*something*.

It spoilt what's otherwise a very good show

I don't understand... WHAT has spoilt?

The way they claim that the £20m in question is the straw that would
break the camel's back, allow them to rebuild the network, buy hundreds
of new trains (which they admit cost £8m each) and so on. Even though it
must be costing them £20m to collect only part of that £20m.

Oh come on. It is ticket fraud - you can hardly expect LU people to
create any sort of impression that such a scale of loss is somehow
tolerated by the organisation. You can hardly expect a series about
the Tube not to cover a subject which is known to drive fare paying
passengers mad. People who do pay hate the fact that a proportion of
their fellow travellers get away without paying. You also need to
understand the political pressure on TfL to make never ending cuts in
funding. I don't imagine Boris would be happy to see LU being sloppy
about this topic in a telly programme.

It is not an easy problem to solve as no revenue protection method is
100% effective and people are endlessly creative about how to defraud
the railway of money. The same applies in a whole range of fields
where "easy" money can be made hence why the banks, ISPs and retailers
have not solved card fraud, identity fraud or theft from shops by
shoppers and staff.

TfL is being 99% effective (iirc the figures they gave indicates that
evasion was only 1% of fare box). So while it's annoying to think some
people are travelling for free, it's not the end of the world. I'm sure
discussions here of heavy rail systems have said that the point of
diminishing returns cuts in at about 5% fare evasion.

It casts a shadow over all the other claims they make about why they are
doing stuff.

Only for you Roland. You do have a very odd view of the world at
times.

I'm very sensitive to "spin", and often see it when others don't. If
they successfully collected every single fare (and assuming they weren't
spending all the £20m to collect that "last 1%") it would have an
imperceptible effect upon fares (£1.98 instead of £2 for a single).

Like I said, it's just "security theatre" to make sure it doesn't creep
above 1%.

Then they throw out comments like "ten people on every train haven't
paid" - only if there are 1,000 on the train! What this does is make me
wonder what other things being said are similarly spun. It's sad,
because I think the series shows TfL, and especially the staff, in a
very good light, and shows the magnitude of the problems they have to
deal with day to day.
--
Roland Perry

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 10:43:33 on Sun, 25 Mar
2012, " remarked:
Sorry, all, but does anybody know where I could see Channel 4's
"Dispatches" documentary about the Tube?

Should be: http://www.channel4.com/programmes/dispatches/4od

but it doesn't seem to have been selected for archiving.

It'll find it's way to More4 - 23 times

tim

On Mar 24, 5:21*pm, Roland Perry wrote:
In message
, at
08:21:10 on Sat, 24 Mar 2012, "
remarked:

There is at least on central London station where lift goes from
inside gateline to outside

Two that I know of, at Bank and Euston Square.
--
Roland Perry

Yup i was thinking of Euston Square

On Mar 24, 2:30*pm, David Walters wrote:

On Sat, 24 Mar 2012 11:10:53 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
Meanwhile, there was some speculation earlier about exactly how the chap
was misusing his Oyster. They showed him touching in then out again (but
staying in) which tricked the card into not registering the start of a
journey. What they didn't show was how he was touching-in at a station
closer to his destination, in order to be able to touch out (at a lower
fare) at the destination without incurring a penalty for an unresolved
journey.

I thought he was travelling from zone 2 to zone 2, via zone 1, with a
zone 2 season ticket. If that is the case an unresolved journey isn't a
problem so on exit he doesn't need to touch in first once he has touched
in and out at the start.

Agreed, that was the conclusion of the previous thread.

People DO use this touch-in-&-out procedure. But a FAR simpler way is to buy a weekly zones 2-3 ticket. That will take you through zone 1 and the gates will never know whence you came.

Only RCIs will know.

On Sunday, 25 March 2012 05:18:08 UTC+1, Charles Ellson wrote:
On Sat, 24 Mar 2012 22:57:41 +0000, Tony Dragon
wrote:

On 24/03/2012 11:10, Roland Perry wrote:
I'm only just catching up on the series, and watched the one about
revenue inspectors yesterday. Doing some quick sums on the back of an
envelope, it seems it costs them about as much to run the revenue
inspectors as the fares they are failing to collect (£20m a year). In
any event that's 1% of their turnover, and not the complete financial
disaster they portray it as. Although I agree there's an element of
"encouraging the others" so you have to been seen to be doing *something*.

It spoilt what's otherwise a very good show which I think gives a good
insight into what it's like from the inside (even if some of the staff
play to the cameras a bit).

Meanwhile, there was some speculation earlier about exactly how the chap
was misusing his Oyster. They showed him touching in then out again (but
staying in) which tricked the card into not registering the start of a
journey. What they didn't show was how he was touching-in at a station
closer to his destination, in order to be able to touch out (at a lower
fare) at the destination without incurring a penalty for an unresolved
journey.

If I touch in twice at a National Rails station with my Oyster, will it
be registered as a start of journey?

If you mean twice on entry then IIRC there has to be a minimum time
between touches for the second one to count as it is an expected event
for this to happen if e.g. a gate jams or someone thinks there has
been no response to the touch.
Unfortunately it isn't among the combination of touches dealt with in
this FOI request :-
http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/reques..._card_more_tha

A quick Google suggests that, at least with buses, a second touch
gives a signal to the driver (who will hopefully have seen it has been
in the same person's hand on both occasions) but does not incur an
extra charge. That seems to match my personal experience when the
validator on a bus was either "dumb" or was overpowered by background
noise.

What happens at stations seems to depend on whether or not they are
gated so I'll let someone else answer that.



On Sunday, 25 March 2012 05:18:08 UTC+1, Charles Ellson wrote:
On Sat, 24 Mar 2012 22:57:41 +0000, Tony Dragon
wrote:

On 24/03/2012 11:10, Roland Perry wrote:
I'm only just catching up on the series, and watched the one about
revenue inspectors yesterday. Doing some quick sums on the back of an
envelope, it seems it costs them about as much to run the revenue
inspectors as the fares they are failing to collect (£20m a year). In
any event that's 1% of their turnover, and not the complete financial
disaster they portray it as. Although I agree there's an element of
"encouraging the others" so you have to been seen to be doing *something*.

It spoilt what's otherwise a very good show which I think gives a good
insight into what it's like from the inside (even if some of the staff
play to the cameras a bit).

Meanwhile, there was some speculation earlier about exactly how the chap
was misusing his Oyster. They showed him touching in then out again (but
staying in) which tricked the card into not registering the start of a
journey. What they didn't show was how he was touching-in at a station
closer to his destination, in order to be able to touch out (at a lower
fare) at the destination without incurring a penalty for an unresolved
journey.

If I touch in twice at a National Rails station with my Oyster, will it
be registered as a start of journey?

If you mean twice on entry then IIRC there has to be a minimum time
between touches for the second one to count as it is an expected event
for this to happen if e.g. a gate jams or someone thinks there has
been no response to the touch.
Unfortunately it isn't among the combination of touches dealt with in
this FOI request :-
http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/reques..._card_more_tha

A quick Google suggests that, at least with buses, a second touch
gives a signal to the driver (who will hopefully have seen it has been
in the same person's hand on both occasions) but does not incur an
extra charge. That seems to match my personal experience when the
validator on a bus was either "dumb" or was overpowered by background
noise.

What happens at stations seems to depend on whether or not they are
gated so I'll let someone else answer that.



On Sunday, 25 March 2012 05:18:08 UTC+1, Charles Ellson wrote:
On Sat, 24 Mar 2012 22:57:41 +0000, Tony Dragon
wrote:

On 24/03/2012 11:10, Roland Perry wrote:
I'm only just catching up on the series, and watched the one about
revenue inspectors yesterday. Doing some quick sums on the back of an
envelope, it seems it costs them about as much to run the revenue
inspectors as the fares they are failing to collect (£20m a year). In
any event that's 1% of their turnover, and not the complete financial
disaster they portray it as. Although I agree there's an element of
"encouraging the others" so you have to been seen to be doing *something*.

It spoilt what's otherwise a very good show which I think gives a good
insight into what it's like from the inside (even if some of the staff
play to the cameras a bit).

Meanwhile, there was some speculation earlier about exactly how the chap
was misusing his Oyster. They showed him touching in then out again (but
staying in) which tricked the card into not registering the start of a
journey. What they didn't show was how he was touching-in at a station
closer to his destination, in order to be able to touch out (at a lower
fare) at the destination without incurring a penalty for an unresolved
journey.

If I touch in twice at a National Rails station with my Oyster, will it
be registered as a start of journey?

If you mean twice on entry then IIRC there has to be a minimum time
between touches for the second one to count as it is an expected event
for this to happen if e.g. a gate jams or someone thinks there has
been no response to the touch.
Unfortunately it isn't among the combination of touches dealt with in
this FOI request :-
http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/reques..._card_more_tha

A quick Google suggests that, at least with buses, a second touch
gives a signal to the driver (who will hopefully have seen it has been
in the same person's hand on both occasions) but does not incur an
extra charge. That seems to match my personal experience when the
validator on a bus was either "dumb" or was overpowered by background
noise.

What happens at stations seems to depend on whether or not they are
gated so I'll let someone else answer that.



On Sunday, 25 March 2012 05:18:08 UTC+1, Charles Ellson wrote:
On Sat, 24 Mar 2012 22:57:41 +0000, Tony Dragon
wrote:

On 24/03/2012 11:10, Roland Perry wrote:
I'm only just catching up on the series, and watched the one about
revenue inspectors yesterday. Doing some quick sums on the back of an
envelope, it seems it costs them about as much to run the revenue
inspectors as the fares they are failing to collect (£20m a year). In
any event that's 1% of their turnover, and not the complete financial
disaster they portray it as. Although I agree there's an element of
"encouraging the others" so you have to been seen to be doing *something*.

It spoilt what's otherwise a very good show which I think gives a good
insight into what it's like from the inside (even if some of the staff
play to the cameras a bit).

Meanwhile, there was some speculation earlier about exactly how the chap
was misusing his Oyster. They showed him touching in then out again (but
staying in) which tricked the card into not registering the start of a
journey. What they didn't show was how he was touching-in at a station
closer to his destination, in order to be able to touch out (at a lower
fare) at the destination without incurring a penalty for an unresolved
journey.

If I touch in twice at a National Rails station with my Oyster, will it
be registered as a start of journey?

If you mean twice on entry then IIRC there has to be a minimum time
between touches for the second one to count as it is an expected event
for this to happen if e.g. a gate jams or someone thinks there has
been no response to the touch.
Unfortunately it isn't among the combination of touches dealt with in
this FOI request :-
http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/reques..._card_more_tha

A quick Google suggests that, at least with buses, a second touch
gives a signal to the driver (who will hopefully have seen it has been
in the same person's hand on both occasions) but does not incur an
extra charge. That seems to match my personal experience when the
validator on a bus was either "dumb" or was overpowered by background
noise.

What happens at stations seems to depend on whether or not they are
gated so I'll let someone else answer that.

Offramp wrote

People DO use this touch-in-&-out procedure. But a FAR simpler way is
to buy a weekly zones 2-3 ticket. That will take you through zone 1 and
the gates will never know whence you came.

If you touched in then the gates will know where and if the route to
where you touched out is "Via Zone 1" something could be done, either
then or if your Oyster record showed you doing it often.

Only RCIs will know.

Big Brother (the Oyster system) is watching.


--
Mike D

On Monday, 26 March 2012 17:09:56 UTC+1, Michael R N Dolbear wrote:

People DO use this touch-in-&-out procedure. But a FAR simpler way is
to buy a weekly zones 2-3 ticket. That will take you through zone 1 and
the gates will never know whence you came.

If you touched in then the gates will know where and if the route to
where you touched out is "Via Zone 1" something could be done, either
then or if your Oyster record showed you doing it often.

Only RCIs will know.

Big Brother (the Oyster system) is watching.

I should have made it clearer; I meant a weekly zones 2-3 PAPER ticket. Oyster cannot track them!

wrote in message
...
Sorry, all, but does anybody know where I could see Channel 4's
"Dispatches" documentary about the Tube?

Thanks in advance.

www.thebox.bz