In message , at 10:16:09 on Thu, 12 Apr
2012, d remarked:
Believe it or not, with £55 million unclaimed Oyster credit, my wife has
been doing her bit in the other direction by having a negative balance of
£4.50 for over a year!

Presumably as oyster cards get more expensive to buy then the negative
balance allowed gets proportionaly larger? I'm sure the max negative balance
used to be something like 2 quid when oysters cost 3 quid.

Unless it's a "Visitor card" then the £3/£5 is a deposit, with the card
itself remaining the property of TfL.

Semantics. The card is de facto the property of the person who paid for it.
The notes in your wallet are legally the property of the government but I
bet you wouldn't give it over to a minister if he asked for it.

I'm sure an accountant somewhere was expecting to recycle "surrendered"
Oyster cards, all the literature makes it quite clear they don't belong
to the holder, only the money on them does.
--
Roland Perry

On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 11:41:59 +0100
Roland Perry wrote:
I'm sure an accountant somewhere was expecting to recycle "surrendered"
Oyster cards, all the literature makes it quite clear they don't belong
to the holder, only the money on them does.

No doubt, but if TfL was truly serious about retaining ownership then they'd
require everyone to produce id and a valid address before buying one so they
could be reclaimed at some point (though obviously if someone lives abroad
that might be a teensy problem). Since they don't require I think it can
be infered that they don't actually care.

B2003

In message , at 10:52:45 on Thu, 12 Apr
2012, d remarked:
I'm sure an accountant somewhere was expecting to recycle "surrendered"
Oyster cards, all the literature makes it quite clear they don't belong
to the holder, only the money on them does.

No doubt, but if TfL was truly serious about retaining ownership then they'd
require everyone to produce id and a valid address before buying one so they
could be reclaimed at some point (though obviously if someone lives abroad
that might be a teensy problem). Since they don't require I think it can
be infered that they don't actually care.

Whether they care or not (about getting them back), that doesn't change
the legal position wrt ownership.
--
Roland Perry

On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 12:05:12 +0100
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 10:52:45 on Thu, 12 Apr
2012, d remarked:
I'm sure an accountant somewhere was expecting to recycle "surrendered"
Oyster cards, all the literature makes it quite clear they don't belong
to the holder, only the money on them does.

No doubt, but if TfL was truly serious about retaining ownership then they'd
require everyone to produce id and a valid address before buying one so they
could be reclaimed at some point (though obviously if someone lives abroad
that might be a teensy problem). Since they don't require I think it can
be infered that they don't actually care.

Whether they care or not (about getting them back), that doesn't change
the legal position wrt ownership.

If a person or an organisation sells something without knowing or caring
where its gone but simply claiming its still theirs then perhaps ownership
could be challenged in court? I would xpost to uk.legal but this bloody
news server won't allowed it.

B2003

On 12/04/2012 12:05, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 10:52:45 on Thu, 12 Apr
2012, d remarked:
I'm sure an accountant somewhere was expecting to recycle "surrendered"
Oyster cards, all the literature makes it quite clear they don't belong
to the holder, only the money on them does.

No doubt, but if TfL was truly serious about retaining ownership then
they'd
require everyone to produce id and a valid address before buying one
so they
could be reclaimed at some point (though obviously if someone lives
abroad
that might be a teensy problem). Since they don't require I think it can
be infered that they don't actually care.

Whether they care or not (about getting them back), that doesn't change
the legal position wrt ownership.

Presumably they assert ownership as some way to increase the chance of
prosecution if you decide to hack "your" Oyster card?

Or if they discover dodgy behaviour going on they can invalidate and/or
confiscate cards (whilst paying back any pay as you go balance) without
you being able to accuse them of theft?

In message , at 08:20:39 on Fri, 13 Apr
2012, Someone Somewhere remarked:
Whether they care or not (about getting them back), that doesn't change
the legal position wrt ownership.

Presumably they assert ownership as some way to increase the chance of
prosecution if you decide to hack "your" Oyster card?

Or if they discover dodgy behaviour going on they can invalidate and/or
confiscate cards (whilst paying back any pay as you go balance) without
you being able to accuse them of theft?

It may also be a belt-and-braces way to be able to ask to see the card,
because it's their card so they are entitled to see it (irrespective of
the general byelaws saying you have to make it available for
inspection).
--
Roland Perry

On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 08:28:13 +0100
Roland Perry wrote:
It may also be a belt-and-braces way to be able to ask to see the card,
because it's their card so they are entitled to see it (irrespective of
the general byelaws saying you have to make it available for
inspection).

On a related subject - how much legal powers do revenue inspectors have?
If someone just tells them to eff off is there much they can do about it
apart from call the BTP?

B2003

In message , at 08:42:20 on Fri, 13 Apr
2012, d remarked:
It may also be a belt-and-braces way to be able to ask to see the card,
because it's their card so they are entitled to see it (irrespective of
the general byelaws saying you have to make it available for
inspection).

On a related subject - how much legal powers do revenue inspectors have?
If someone just tells them to eff off is there much they can do about it
apart from call the BTP?

National Conditions of Carriage

22. You must show and, if asked to do so by the staff of a Train Company
or its agent, hand over for inspection a valid ticket and any relevant
Railcard, photocard or other form of personal identification in
accordance with Condition 15.

If you don't, the worst which happens is being treated as if you don't
have a ticket - which could vary from a Penalty Fare to a prosecution
for fare evasion, depending on the circumstances.

Reinforced by Railway Byelaws 17 & 18:

"A person shall hand over his ticket for inspection and verification of
validity when asked to do so by an authorised person."

And byelaw 24.

"Any person who is reasonably believed by an authorised person to be in
breach of any of these Byelaws shall leave the railway immediately if
asked to do so by an authorised person."

"Any person who is reasonably believed by an authorised person to be in
breach of any of these Byelaws and who fails to desist or leave when
asked to do so by an authorised person may be removed from the railway
by an authorised person using reasonable force. This right of removal is
in addition to the imposition of any penalty for the breach of these
Byelaws."
--
Roland Perry