There is increasing concern that traincos serving London (and
eslewhere around the country) are refusing to accept cash as payment
for tickets from their automatic ticket machines.

This is causing massive disrupution to potential customers especially
those youngsters who do not have a credit card, or in London those
whose Oyster card has run out and cannot be topped up. This situation
also disadvantages thousands of tourists who expect to be able to
purchase train tickets from machines with cash.

In the greater London area the National Rail stations are in what is
termed a 'Penalty Fare Zone.' Travelling within this zone without a
ticket can incur a huge penalty fine. If tickets cannot be purchased
for travel within this zone - even if the automatic ticket machines
are u/s - then 'Permit to Travel' tickets are supposed to be purchased
from another machine for a nominal amount of cash. These tickets then
make the travel legal. The balance of the fare is then supposed to be
paid at the destination. These are the ONLY tickets available for cash
- well used to be.

However despite PTTs being a legal requirement in the Penalty Fare
Zone(s) the Permits to Travel ticket issuing machines are frequently
switched off, or have been removed altogether.

Notices clearly displayed at most stations state that it is a legal
requirement to purchase these special PTT tickets. Yet many (most /
all?) traincos have closed down or removed the PTT machines.

So what is the legal situation whereas the requirement is to purchase
these PTT tickets, yet the machines that issue them have been removed?

CJB.

On May 23, 11:33*pm, CJB wrote:
There is increasing concern that traincos serving London (and
eslewhere around the country) are refusing to accept cash as payment
for tickets from their automatic ticket machines.

This is causing massive disrupution to potential customers especially
those youngsters who do not have a credit card, or in London those
whose Oyster card has run out and cannot be topped up. This situation
also disadvantages thousands of tourists who expect to be able to
purchase train tickets from machines with cash.

In the greater London area the National Rail stations are in what is
termed a 'Penalty Fare Zone.' Travelling within this zone without a
ticket can incur a huge penalty fine. If tickets cannot be purchased
for travel within this zone - even if the automatic ticket machines
are u/s - then 'Permit to Travel' tickets are supposed to be purchased
from another machine for a nominal amount of cash. These tickets then
make the travel legal. The balance of the fare is then supposed to be
paid at the destination. These are the ONLY tickets available for cash
- well used to be.

However despite PTTs being a legal requirement in the Penalty Fare
Zone(s) the Permits to Travel ticket issuing machines are frequently
switched off, or have been removed altogether.

Notices clearly displayed at most stations state that it is a legal
requirement to purchase these special PTT tickets. Yet many (most /
all?) traincos have closed down or removed the PTT machines.

So what is the legal situation whereas the requirement is to purchase
these PTT tickets, yet the machines that issue them have been removed?

CJB.

There is a major problem with PTT machines in that they encouraged
people to pay 5 pence for a journey and then not pay at the
destination even if they had more cash in their possession.

The legal position is surely to buy a ticket if you have the money to
pay for it (as it was with the Permit to Travel machines into which
you were meant to put all the money you had available up to the value
of the fare (and not 5p)).

On Wed, 23 May 2012 23:56:06 -0700 (PDT), Jonathan Harris
wrote:

On May 23, 11:33*pm, CJB wrote:
There is increasing concern that traincos serving London (and
eslewhere around the country) are refusing to accept cash as payment
for tickets from their automatic ticket machines.

This is causing massive disrupution to potential customers especially
those youngsters who do not have a credit card, or in London those
whose Oyster card has run out and cannot be topped up. This situation
also disadvantages thousands of tourists who expect to be able to
purchase train tickets from machines with cash.

In the greater London area the National Rail stations are in what is
termed a 'Penalty Fare Zone.' Travelling within this zone without a
ticket can incur a huge penalty fine. If tickets cannot be purchased
for travel within this zone - even if the automatic ticket machines
are u/s - then 'Permit to Travel' tickets are supposed to be purchased
from another machine for a nominal amount of cash. These tickets then
make the travel legal. The balance of the fare is then supposed to be
paid at the destination. These are the ONLY tickets available for cash
- well used to be.

However despite PTTs being a legal requirement in the Penalty Fare
Zone(s) the Permits to Travel ticket issuing machines are frequently
switched off, or have been removed altogether.

Notices clearly displayed at most stations state that it is a legal
requirement to purchase these special PTT tickets. Yet many (most /
all?) traincos have closed down or removed the PTT machines.

So what is the legal situation whereas the requirement is to purchase
these PTT tickets, yet the machines that issue them have been removed?

There is a major problem with PTT machines in that they encouraged
people to pay 5 pence for a journey and then not pay at the
destination even if they had more cash in their possession.

What do you mean by "then not pay at the destination"? do you mean
refuse to pay, or avoid payment by dodging any barriers or ticket
inspectors? If the former, presumably the rail companies have some way
of dealing with non-payers. If the latter, they could dodge payment
whether the PTT machines existed or not.

--
Max Demian

On 24/05/2012 10:33, Max Demian wrote:
On Wed, 23 May 2012 23:56:06 -0700 (PDT), Jonathan Harris



There is a major problem with PTT machines in that they encouraged
people to pay 5 pence for a journey and then not pay at the
destination even if they had more cash in their possession.

What do you mean by "then not pay at the destination"? do you mean
refuse to pay, or avoid payment by dodging any barriers or ticket
inspectors? If the former, presumably the rail companies have some way
of dealing with non-payers. If the latter, they could dodge payment
whether the PTT machines existed or not.

The latter. If stopped without a ticket, you were probably up to no
good. If stopped with a 5p permit to travel, you could say you intended
to pay later - and if not stopped, you got a journey for 5p.



--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

On Thu, 24 May 2012 17:42:09 +0100, Arthur Figgis
wrote:

On 24/05/2012 10:33, Max Demian wrote:
On Wed, 23 May 2012 23:56:06 -0700 (PDT), Jonathan Harris

There is a major problem with PTT machines in that they encouraged
people to pay 5 pence for a journey and then not pay at the
destination even if they had more cash in their possession.

What do you mean by "then not pay at the destination"? do you mean
refuse to pay, or avoid payment by dodging any barriers or ticket
inspectors? If the former, presumably the rail companies have some way
of dealing with non-payers. If the latter, they could dodge payment
whether the PTT machines existed or not.

The latter. If stopped without a ticket, you were probably up to no
good. If stopped with a 5p permit to travel, you could say you intended
to pay later - and if not stopped, you got a journey for 5p.

The solution is to put in more barriers, as they did a year or two ago
at Paddington for the Maidenhead line, or employ more ticket
inspectors.

When there weren't PTT machines the ticket inspector just had to take
your word for where you got on. The 'permit to travel' system
regularises this, provided the machines are available and work.

--
Max Demian

"Max Demian" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 23 May 2012 23:56:06 -0700 (PDT), Jonathan Harris
wrote:

There is a major problem with PTT machines in that they encouraged
people to pay 5 pence for a journey and then not pay at the
destination even if they had more cash in their possession.

What do you mean by "then not pay at the destination"? do you mean
refuse to pay, or avoid payment by dodging any barriers or ticket
inspectors? If the former, presumably the rail companies have some way
of dealing with non-payers. If the latter, they could dodge payment
whether the PTT machines existed or not.

Permit To Travel machines predate the widespread use of automatic ticket
barriers. In the old days it was frequently possible to travel between two
stations and not encounter any ticket inspection whatsoever at any point in
the journey, especially if you travelled off-peak and/or didn't start/finish
at one of the biggest stations. It was thus very easy to get a PTT for just
5p and if you did come across an inspector you could claim that the ticket
machines at the start of your journey weren't giving change or taking notes
(something an inspector on the train or at another station could not verify)
and produce a £5 (or higher) note and pay your fare. If you didn't get
inspected and just walked out of the station at your destination then there
was nothing the rail companies could do. Thus a lot of people fare dodged
but could never be charged because the system allowed them to pay on the
rare occasions they encountered an inspector.

--
My blog: http://adf.ly/4hi4c

"Tim Roll-Pickering" wrote:
Permit To Travel machines predate the widespread use of automatic ticket
barriers. In the old days it was frequently possible to travel between two
stations and not encounter any ticket inspection whatsoever at any point in
the journey, especially if you travelled off-peak and/or didn't start/finish
at one of the biggest stations. It was thus very easy to get a PTT for just
5p and if you did come across an inspector you could claim that the ticket
machines at the start of your journey weren't giving change or taking notes
(something an inspector on the train or at another station could not verify)
and produce a £5 (or higher) note and pay your fare.


While doing this, you would have to be careful not to jangle the other
coins in your pocket. That would give the lie to your claim of having
only 5p.

The problem with the Permit to Travel machines is that they were based
on trust. If it was ever safe to trust people with this kind of
system (some would say that in the 1950s and 60s, it was) it certainly
isn't now.

Bruce wrote:
Permit To Travel machines predate the widespread use of automatic ticket
barriers. In the old days it was frequently possible to travel between two
stations and not encounter any ticket inspection whatsoever at any point
in
the journey, especially if you travelled off-peak and/or didn't
start/finish
at one of the biggest stations. It was thus very easy to get a PTT for
just
5p and if you did come across an inspector you could claim that the ticket
machines at the start of your journey weren't giving change or taking
notes
(something an inspector on the train or at another station could not
verify)
and produce a £5 (or higher) note and pay your fare.

While doing this, you would have to be careful not to jangle the other
coins in your pocket. That would give the lie to your claim of having
only 5p.

You could plead coppers, which I can't recall PTTs or TVMs taking.
Alternatively use a wallet with a tight coin compartment or a separate coin
holder.

The problem with the Permit to Travel machines is that they were based
on trust. If it was ever safe to trust people with this kind of
system (some would say that in the 1950s and 60s, it was) it certainly
isn't now.

True but it's the vicious circle that if machines go down and/or are locked
away for the evening and weekends (as used to happen at my local station)
then there are few ways to legitimately obtain a ticket at the start of your
journey. I've had problems with my Oyster running out in the past, primarily
when on the student discount because thanks to annual reregistration at the
college and TfL annually issuing a new card I invariably had a gap each year
between my season ticket expiring and being able to get a new one with the
sizable discount. Because TfL staff always refused to transfer credit from
my old to my new cards (and because this was before National Rail signed up
to PAYG which made it even less useful in this part of town) I generally
didn't keep much on them anyway.

--
My blog: http://adf.ly/4hi4c

On Fri, May 25, 2012 at 07:14:24PM +0100, Bruce wrote:
"Tim Roll-Pickering" wrote:
Permit To Travel machines predate the widespread use of automatic ticket
barriers. In the old days it was frequently possible to travel between two
stations and not encounter any ticket inspection whatsoever at any point in
the journey, especially if you travelled off-peak and/or didn't start/finish
at one of the biggest stations. It was thus very easy to get a PTT for just
5p and if you did come across an inspector you could claim that the ticket
machines at the start of your journey weren't giving change or taking notes
(something an inspector on the train or at another station could not verify)
and produce a £5 (or higher) note and pay your fare.
While doing this, you would have to be careful not to jangle the other
coins in your pocket. That would give the lie to your claim of having
only 5p.

If you have no idea how much the ticket is, it would be stupid to guess,
given that you don't know if there will be a manned ticket office at the
other end to sort it out for you. Sure, 5p is unrealistically low, but
given that there are single tickets less than two quid, I'd never put
more than a pound in, just to make sure I don't get ripped off.

The problem with the Permit to Travel machines is that they were based
on trust. If it was ever safe to trust people with this kind of
system (some would say that in the 1950s and 60s, it was) it certainly
isn't now.

True. But you can't solve social problems with technology. You need to
either have manned ticket offices, manned ticket barriers (where the man
can sell you a ticket or help you use the ticket machine; the ticket
machine must accept all common means of payment), or staff on trains
who, again, will accept all common means of payment. Southern, at
least, appear to be slowly learning this, although their ticket machines
are still a bit crap at selling travelcards.

--
David Cantrell | Minister for Arbitrary Justice

While researching this email, I was forced to carry out some
investigative work which unfortunately involved a bucket of
puppies and a belt sander
-- after JoeB, in the Monastery

On May 24, 7:56*am, Jonathan Harris
wrote:
On May 23, 11:33*pm, CJB wrote:









There is increasing concern that traincos serving London (and
eslewhere around the country) are refusing to accept cash as payment
for tickets from their automatic ticket machines.

This is causing massive disrupution to potential customers especially
those youngsters who do not have a credit card, or in London those
whose Oyster card has run out and cannot be topped up. This situation
also disadvantages thousands of tourists who expect to be able to
purchase train tickets from machines with cash.

In the greater London area the National Rail stations are in what is
termed a 'Penalty Fare Zone.' Travelling within this zone without a
ticket can incur a huge penalty fine. If tickets cannot be purchased
for travel within this zone - even if the automatic ticket machines
are u/s - then 'Permit to Travel' tickets are supposed to be purchased
from another machine for a nominal amount of cash. These tickets then
make the travel legal. The balance of the fare is then supposed to be
paid at the destination. These are the ONLY tickets available for cash
- well used to be.

However despite PTTs being a legal requirement in the Penalty Fare
Zone(s) the Permits to Travel ticket issuing machines are frequently
switched off, or have been removed altogether.

Notices clearly displayed at most stations state that it is a legal
requirement to purchase these special PTT tickets. Yet many (most /
all?) traincos have closed down or removed the PTT machines.

So what is the legal situation whereas the requirement is to purchase
these PTT tickets, yet the machines that issue them have been removed?

CJB.

There is a major problem with PTT machines in that they encouraged
people to pay 5 pence for a journey and then not pay at the
destination even if they had more cash in their possession.

The legal position is surely to buy a ticket if you have the money to
pay for it (as it was with the Permit to Travel machines into which
you were meant to put all the money you had available up to the value
of the fare (and not 5p)).

Yes - but most (all?) of the ticket machines have been altered so as
not to take cash. Only the PTT machines could take cash. Now these
latter are all out-of-contract and are being removed or left switched
off. However the law states that a PTT MUST be purchased if a normal
ticket cannot - yet it is now impossible to purchase a PTT. So either
new PTT machine must be provided or the law has to be changed. Its a
catch-22 for customers that cannot be acceptable. CJB.