"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 12:22:06 on Fri, 23 Nov
2012, Graeme Wall remarked:
I believe bus replacement services have designated "bus stops",

No, they just stop on a country road somewhere near the station.

which wouldn't include "middle of the high street".

Unless the station's there, in which case my requirement would not arise.

Therefore the insurance angle might still apply.

But there are official bus stops in the High Street.

Yes. Those official stops are for those bus services that have been
authorised by the Traffic Commissioners to call at them as part of their
licenced route. They are operating a "Bus Route".

When the National Train Set is broken, buses (the vehicle TYPE) are
contracted in by the rail authorities to bridge the gap between the bits
that still work. They are CONTRACTED to call at specific points, be those
railway stations, or SPECIFIED points near those railway stations. (e.g. on
A27 between Havant and Chichester, the vehicle stays ON the A27 and does not
go up the side roads to the stations). This is a contracted service. The
general public are not carried: the only passengers who should use it are
train passengers as directed by the railway people, and rail staff, and
employees of the bus company when carrying out duties associated with the
service (which includes route learning). In short: the rail replacement
service is NOT a Local Bus Service and does not operate under the licences
issued by the Traffic Commissioners as a Local Bus Service, and a driver who
takes it upon himself to provide such a service without lawful excuse is
breaking the law.

Try getting off a National Express service at ANY bus stop along its route.
They only (legally) stop at very specified points. (Yes, I KNOW some drivers
allow the concept of a "Coin Operated Door" - but it is wrong, they may get
away with it, for a while!)

HTH HAND MTG HT MDTBOTBP

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 13:30:27 on Fri,
23 Nov 2012, Paul Scott remarked:
I've been on replacement buses where the driver has asked if anyone does
actually wants to go to a particular station itself, or can the bus drop
off on the main road/village centre/etc to save a slow trip along a
narrow dead-end lane to the station and back.

Hopefully on a set down only service, or the driver knew by other means
no-one was waiting at the station?

I'm less sanguine about it. Bus replacement services rarely appear to
expect to pick passengers up at rural stations, merely deliver passengers
who embarked at a nearby big town. One way you can tell is that the
pick-up point is often some way from the rural station (eg at the other
end of the road to the station), and no-one bothers to say exactly where
it is.
--
Roland Perry
There are usually signboards at such stations stating where the pickup /
drop down points are. This information (in the event of planned engineering
works) is often promulgated around the affected area. Local regular rail
passengers who have experienced rail replacement buses at their station in
thepast, will also know that the bus stops at the bottom of the road, not
the station. Taxi drivers will certainly know - they will point out to a
passenger wanting to go to the station, that the bus is replacing it, and
take them there instead, (especially if it is a bit further!). And most
peoplem use their common sense, however that is not infallible.

In message , at
13:59:40 on Fri, 23 Nov 2012, Portsmouth Rider
remarked:

In short: the rail replacement service is NOT a Local Bus Service and
does not operate under the licences issued by the Traffic Commissioners
as a Local Bus Service, and a driver who takes it upon himself to
provide such a service without lawful excuse is breaking the law.

That's a new excuse. Up to now I'd been trying to debunk the concept
that their insurance would be invalid because they were dropping people
off at highly dangerous bus stops that apparently only regular buses can
safely drop people at. Or that stopping to do so will trash their
schedule.

As for running a faux-local-bus-service, I doubt if anyone on such buses
wants to be there. They'd rather be on the train that was cancelled.

It's ridiculous to expect someone might be hovering at the railway
station on the off-chance of a bustitution that might go past their
house.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at
14:14:43 on Fri, 23 Nov 2012, Portsmouth Rider
remarked:
I've been on replacement buses where the driver has asked if anyone does
actually wants to go to a particular station itself, or can the bus drop
off on the main road/village centre/etc to save a slow trip along a
narrow dead-end lane to the station and back.

Hopefully on a set down only service, or the driver knew by other means
no-one was waiting at the station?

I'm less sanguine about it. Bus replacement services rarely appear to
expect to pick passengers up at rural stations, merely deliver passengers
who embarked at a nearby big town. One way you can tell is that the
pick-up point is often some way from the rural station (eg at the other
end of the road to the station), and no-one bothers to say exactly where
it is.

There are usually signboards at such stations stating where the pickup /
drop down points are.

Not as far as I can tell.

This information (in the event of planned engineering works) is often
promulgated around the affected area. Local regular rail passengers who
have experienced rail replacement buses at their station in thepast,
will also know that the bus stops at the bottom of the road, not the
station.

Outside the rush hour, a lot of travellers are not regulars.

Taxi drivers will certainly know - they will point out to a passenger
wanting to go to the station, that the bus is replacing it, and take
them there instead, (especially if it is a bit further!).

The scenarios where I have been bustituted were in areas with virtually
no taxis. Only the very busiest (and mainly urban) stations have taxi
ranks.

And most peoplem use their common sense, however that is not
infallible.

Common sense says that if a rail trip is bustituted, the bus will stop
at the staion.
--
Roland Perry

"Portsmouth Rider" wrote:

And the local cabbies will be on to the rail company, and the bus company,
because they see it as the bus driver providing an illegal taxi service, and
lost trade for themselves.

It is perfectly legal for a bus route to be registered, and to operate, as
hail and ride, i.e. stopping in any safe location.

Neil
--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK. Put first name before the at to reply.

Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 11:38:07 on Fri, 23
Nov 2012, John Williamson remarked:
And to the guy that suggested it's only a few seconds delay, it's
actually at least a minute by the time the coach has slowed down,
opened the door, let the passenger out, closed the door and got back
into the traffic stream.

What are these buses doing about traffic lights, zebra crossing and (god
forbid) level crossings? They failing to stop at any of them either,
because a few seconds delay will be so catastrophic?

No; there's plenty of slack in the schedule, just like normal buses that
have to stop every now and again en route.

That's built in to the schedule. I know this because I have scheduled
bus services in the past. I have also scheduled rail replacement
services, and if everything goes right, there is some slack in the
schedule. On the other hand, if all the lights are against the driver,
there are pedestrians on every crossing, and he gets caught at a level
crossing, there isn't. If he also stops to let you and the other dozen
or so people that are too self important to do the walking from the
station they'd have to do anyway, he's late, and so are the onward
travelling passengers.

(And on the roads I had in mind, virtually no other traffic).

This "can't do" attitude is what's dragging this country to ruin, and
especially where things like transport is concerned.

No, it's the "I'm the only person that matters" attitude that's bringing
this country down. Public transport is run for the benefit of *all* the
passengers, not just for people too idle to walk from the train station
to their destination. Incidentally, would you pay the bus driver your
taxi fare so he could pass it on to the other passengers if he dropped
you off at your desired destination, to make up for the inconvenience
you've caused to them? Or are you a cheapskate as well as lazy?

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 12:22:06 on Fri, 23 Nov
2012, Graeme Wall remarked:
I believe bus replacement services have designated "bus stops",

No, they just stop on a country road somewhere near the station.

They stop at the point designated by the Train operating Company. This
is the only point approved by the insurance company. There may not be a
sign there, but the driver will have received instructions to stop at.
say the junction of Station Road and lonely Lane. This is where the
passengers will be told to wait by the TOC, either by a sign, or by the
operator on the TOC's phone number that will be advertised.

which wouldn't include "middle of the high street".

Unless the station's there, in which case my requirement would not arise.

True.

Therefore the insurance angle might still apply.

But there are official bus stops in the High Street.

These are not approved for use by rail replacement services, which are
legally a limited stop service, run under contract to the TOC.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

d wrote:
On Fri, 23 Nov 2012 13:26:55 -0000
"Portsmouth Rider" wrote:
Passenger being permitted to leave at unauthorised stop trips (even may be
own fault.)
Leads to:
Passenger sees "COMPO!!!" and claims from bus co
Leads to:
Bus co want to know from driver what was he doing allowing unscheduled
dropping points
Leads to:
Driver out of job

In theory, in practice there has to be some leaway. If for example the road
is blocked ahead and the bus can't move then the driver will have to let
the passengers off else they could sue the bus company for false imprisonment!
And while we hear of stupid payouts in courts like that one in the last few
days for the idiot who hurt her finger, I'm pretty sure most judges and juries
are fairly sensible and would see the drivers point of view.

The judge and jury might, The compensation lawyer certainly won't. In
the end it will come to an expensive court case which may swing either
way, which costs everybody concerned major amounts of money. In the end
the compensation and legal fees will be paid out of the passengers'
pockets. This will put up the cost of rail tickets.

The passengers can't sue for false imprisonment in the circumstances you
give, either. It's been tried and the case failed. Passenger safety was
the reason quoted.

The bottom line is, you contract with the TOC is to get you to $Station.
There is no contractual liability to drop you off at any other place
just because you want to be dropped there because the bus happens to go
that way.

Dropping you at any place other than a contractually agreed place is in
contravention of your contract, and if you insist on being dropped at a
place other than your destination, you are in breach of the conditions
of carriage which you agreed to when you bought the ticket, and if any
problems (For example, someone misses an important appointment that they
would otherwise have attended) arise because of this, you can be sued by
the TOC for damages.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

In message , at 15:31:02 on Fri, 23
Nov 2012, John Williamson remarked:
If he also stops to let you and the other dozen or so people that are
too self important to do the walking from the station they'd have to do
anyway, he's late, and so are the onward travelling passengers.

(And on the roads I had in mind, virtually no other traffic).
This "can't do" attitude is what's dragging this country to ruin,
and especially where things like transport is concerned.

No, it's the "I'm the only person that matters" attitude that's
bringing this country down. Public transport is run for the benefit of
*all* the passengers, not just for people too idle to walk from the
train station to their destination. Incidentally, would you pay the bus
driver your taxi fare so he could pass it on to the other passengers if
he dropped you off at your desired destination, to make up for the
inconvenience you've caused to them? Or are you a cheapskate as well as lazy?

There seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding here. I'm not asking
the bus driver to vary his route to drop me off, merely to let me off
the bus at a point closer to my actual destination than the station.

While I would clearly be happy to walk back from the station of
delivered there on time by train, being delivered there an hour or more
late by bus seems to me to shift the burden of responsibility back onto
the rail company (and their bus).
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 15:48:30 on Fri, 23
Nov 2012, John Williamson remarked:
Dropping you at any place other than a contractually agreed place is in
contravention of your contract, and if you insist on being dropped at a
place other than your destination, you are in breach of the conditions
of carriage which you agreed to when you bought the ticket,

Many tickets (and certainly the ones I was using) allow Break of
Journey. Why wouldn't that also apply to bustituted sections.

As for the contract, the ToC is likely to be in a position where it's
having to refund my fare because I'm more than $foo late getting to my
destination. They are more in breach than I am.

and if any problems (For example, someone misses an important
appointment that they would otherwise have attended) arise because of
this, you can be sued by the TOC for damages.

What if I'm the one late for an appointment, and the ToC can mitigate
their loss by dropping me off en-route?
--
Roland Perry