On 2012\10\10 00:48, Dave Plowman wrote:
In article ,
JNugent wrote:
On 09/10/2012 16:04, Dave Plowman wrote:
In article ,
wrote:
Anyway , there's no chance of this hairbrained bill making it through.
If it does the tories are finished for a generation as they'll have
****ed their own supporters royally.

Which they did with the poll tax. Saying it would be fair for everyone,
which translates into their very rich pals paying less in proportion.

"In proportion" to what?

Are you that thick? The poll tax was a fixed sum paid by everyone.
Replaced a tax based on property value. The result being those in an
expensive property paid the same as those in a slum.

And why shouldn't they? If a rich person takes out AA on their car,
they pay the same as a poor person. If a rich person goes to the cinema
they pay the same as a poor person. If a rich person gets on the tube
they pay the same as a poor person. Why should rich people pay more for
sewage and rubbish collection?

On 2012\10\10 15:58, Roland Perry wrote:

Especially as I've taken pains to explain the tunnel was built in the
middle of nowhere (at the time) and the ferry connected existing
built-up areas.

Why was it built in Dartford though, when a tunnel from Gravesend to
Tilbury would fit in much better with the pre-M25 road network... or was
it because the M25 was already planned when the first tunnel was dug.

In message , at 17:37:05 on
Wed, 10 Oct 2012, Basil Jet remarked:
Especially as I've taken pains to explain the tunnel was built in the
middle of nowhere (at the time) and the ferry connected existing
built-up areas.

Why was it built in Dartford though, when a tunnel from Gravesend to
Tilbury would fit in much better with the pre-M25 road network... or
was it because the M25 was already planned when the first tunnel was dug.

It might be lack of land on the banks in those places to construct the
tunnel mouths and toll booths, or a desire to send whatever traffic it
was they expected "round the bypass" rather than through the centre.

Both probably.
--
Roland Perry

In article ,
Basil Jet wrote:
On 2012\10\10 15:58, Roland Perry wrote:

Especially as I've taken pains to explain the tunnel was built in the
middle of nowhere (at the time) and the ferry connected existing
built-up areas.

Why was it built in Dartford though, when a tunnel from Gravesend to
Tilbury would fit in much better with the pre-M25 road network... or was
it because the M25 was already planned when the first tunnel was dug.

The M25 evolved gradually from the pre-war North Orbital and South Orbital
"parkway" motorways, which according to CBRD were going to be joined by
a new tunnel between Thurrock and Dartford.
http://www.cbrd.co.uk/histories/ring...rlyplans.shtml

After the war it became the Ringways project, still apparently planning
to use a tunnel at Dartford.
http://www.cbrd.co.uk/histories/ringways/ringway3/
http://www.cbrd.co.uk/histories/ring...ay3/east.shtml

These were deliberately planned as new roads on new alignments forming
part of a new network, which may answer your question of why Dartford
not Gravesend.

It's not clear why the County Councils built the tunnel in the end rather
than the Men from the Ministry, unless they got fed up for waiting for the
controversial and planning-blighted Ringway schemes to get off the ground.

Nick
--
"The Internet, a sort of ersatz counterfeit of real life"
-- Janet Street-Porter, BBC2, 19th March 1996

On 10/10/2012 13:51, d wrote:
On Wed, 10 Oct 2012 11:15:44 +0100
Roland Perry wrote:
The councils built it for local traffic, that's why it was only a single
lane either way, when many of the arterial roads either side were
already dual carriageways.

It replaced a ferry.

There still is some sort of ferry terminal at dartford on the north bank.
Anyone know what its used for? There's usually a ferry docked there when
I've driven over the bridge.

Cobelfret?

Cross-channel. Don't know where.

On 10/10/2012 17:37, Basil Jet wrote:
On 2012\10\10 15:58, Roland Perry wrote:

Especially as I've taken pains to explain the tunnel was built in the
middle of nowhere (at the time) and the ferry connected existing
built-up areas.

Why was it built in Dartford though, when a tunnel from Gravesend to Tilbury
would fit in much better with the pre-M25 road network... or was it because
the M25 was already planned when the first tunnel was dug.

The tunnel did not directly connect inner-urban areas (the ferry still runs
from the centre of Gravesend to (more or less) the centre of Tilbury. That,
in the 1960s, would not have been a good plan for a road crossing of the
river. Connecting open countryside (and the A2 and the A13) was a better one.

On 10/10/2012 20:46, JNugent wrote:

On 10/10/2012 13:51, d wrote:
There still is some sort of ferry terminal at dartford on the north bank.
Anyone know what its used for? There's usually a ferry docked there when
I've driven over the bridge.

Cobelfret?

Cross-channel. Don't know where.

Zebrugge and Rotterdam.

http://www.freight-ferry.co.uk/TimeTabled2.asp?S_shipper=150

On 10/10/2012 21:04, Mizter T wrote:

On 10/10/2012 20:46, JNugent wrote:

On 10/10/2012 13:51, d wrote:
There still is some sort of ferry terminal at dartford on the north
bank.
Anyone know what its used for? There's usually a ferry docked there when
I've driven over the bridge.

Cobelfret?

Cross-channel. Don't know where.

Zebrugge and Rotterdam.

http://www.freight-ferry.co.uk/TimeTabled2.asp?S_shipper=150

Second para of this PLA press release might be of some interest:

---quote---
25-Jul-12
Cobelfret Ferries’ vessel : maiden call on the Thames

C.Ro Ports at Purfleet has welcomed the latest vessel to join Cobelfret
Ferries fleet, Wilhemine, on her maiden call on the Thames. Wilhemine
is the third vessel in a series of four being built for the company by
Kyokuyo in Japan. The vessel will be a regular caller on the Thames on
the route from Purfleet to Zeebrugge.

C.Ro Ports and Cobelfret are jointly the busiest operator on the Thames,
with vessels travelling from their terminal at Purfleet (just upriver of
the QEII road bridge) and Ford Motor Company's facility at Dagenham to
destinations in Belgium and the Netherlands offering around 40 sailings
every week. Cargoes carried on their services include everything from
cars and machinery to foodstuffs and supermarket supplies.
---/quote---

http://www.pla.co.uk/News/index.cfm/flag/2/id/179879

In article ,
Nick Leverton wrote:
In article ,
Basil Jet wrote:
On 2012\10\10 15:58, Roland Perry wrote:

Especially as I've taken pains to explain the tunnel was built in the
middle of nowhere (at the time) and the ferry connected existing
built-up areas.

Why was it built in Dartford though, when a tunnel from Gravesend to
Tilbury would fit in much better with the pre-M25 road network... or was
it because the M25 was already planned when the first tunnel was dug.

The M25 evolved gradually from the pre-war North Orbital and South Orbital
"parkway" motorways, which according to CBRD were going to be joined by
a new tunnel between Thurrock and Dartford.
http://www.cbrd.co.uk/histories/ring...rlyplans.shtml

It should be noted that this page suggests (if only by order of mention)
the primary Northern Orbital terminus would be Tilbury Ferry and docks,
by the way.

Nick
--
"The Internet, a sort of ersatz counterfeit of real life"
-- Janet Street-Porter, BBC2, 19th March 1996

On Wed, Oct 10, 2012 at 02:42:10PM +0100, tim..... wrote:

Someone must have considered it commercially viable (on say, a 40 year
timetable) as otherwise it wouldn't have been built.

Not necessarily. You can argue that the role of the state is to make
sure that socially beneficial things get done even if not commercially
viable, such as provision of Radio 4 and the original Dartford Tunnel.

--
David Cantrell | Cake Smuggler Extraordinaire