In article , (Mizter T) wrote:

On 02/11/2012 23:37, wrote:

In article ,
(Jarle H Knudsen) wrote:

On Fri, 2 Nov 2012 19:33:31 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:

A train is deemed full when all the seats are occupied. After that
people can stand in the aisles and vestibules, making it more than
100% full.

Is this also true for London Overground trains with longitudal
seating?

Funny you should ask. I had a feeling there was an allowance for
standing at so many per square metre in calculating the PIXC figures.

Roland is just trying to rewrite the official definition, so I'll
join in the spirit of things and rewrite his earlier sentence...

"A train is deemed full ***by me*** [i.e. R Perry] when all the seats
are occupied. After that people can stand in the aisles and
vestibules, making it more than 100% full."

The above does not match the railway industry's definition.

Which is?

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In message , at 23:27:31 on
Fri, 2 Nov 2012, Jarle H Knudsen remarked:

There is no specific number of standing passengers permitted, basically as
many as you can fit. So there is no standard figure that could be used.

No health and safety rules?

There have been isolated cases of train guards refusing to move a train
with people in the vestibules, but 999 times out of 1000 people will be
allowed to stand on every available bit of floor.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 23:30:39 on
Fri, 2 Nov 2012, Jarle H Knudsen remarked:
A train is deemed full when all the seats are occupied. After that
people can stand in the aisles and vestibules, making it more than 100%
full.

The above for "Intercity and outer suburban" trains.

Is this also true for London Overground trains with longitudal seating?

It's a bit more complicated for "Metro" services (journey times
averaging less then 20 minutes), where traditionally an additional 35%
standing is allowed before the train is deemed "full". More recently
(trains constructed since 1999), that has been changed to 0.45m^2 of
floor per passenger.

For modern trains with designed-in standing space (like the Overground)
the capacity quota relates to "all seats full, plus three persons per
square metre standing".
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 23:51:09 on Fri, 2 Nov 2012,
Mizter T remarked:
Roland is just trying to rewrite the official definition, so I'll join
in the spirit of things and rewrite his earlier sentence...

"A train is deemed full ***by me*** [i.e. R Perry] when all the seats
are occupied. After that people can stand in the aisles and vestibules,
making it more than 100% full."

The above does not match the railway industry's definition.

It does, for journeys over 20 minutes (which describes the journey I was
on). See my recent posting.
--
Roland Perry

wrote in message ...
"A train is deemed full ***by me*** [i.e. R Perry] when all the seats
are occupied. After that people can stand in the aisles and
vestibules, making it more than 100% full."

The above does not match the railway industry's definition.

Which is?

From
http://www.dft.gov.uk/statistics/rel...weekdays-2011/

Crowding is measured by comparing the standard class critical load with the
capacity of the service. The standard class capacity includes the number of
standard class seats on the service and may include an allowance for
standing room. No allowance for standing is made on a service when the time
between stations before (AM) or after (PM) the critical load point is more
than 20 minutes, but it is allowed when it is 20 minutes or less. The
allowance for standing varies with the type of rolling stock but, for modern
sliding door stock, it is typically approximately 35 per cent of the number
of standard class seats. For most train operators the standing allowance is
based on an allowance of 0.45m2 of floor space per passenger. However, for
South West Trains a figure of 0.25m2 is used and for Southeastern's class
376 'metro' style stock and for London Overground a figure of 0.35m2 is
used. In some cases train operators do not have standing capacities
calculated for their rolling stock based on the available floor area. In
these cases the standing capacities have been estimated as 20 per cent of
the number of standard class seats for long distance rolling stock, and 35
per cent of the number of standard class seats for commuter rolling stock.
These estimates have been used for Arriva Trains Wales, CrossCountry, East
Midland Trains, East Coast, First Great Western and Virgin Trains.

Peter Smyth

In message , at 10:06:21 on Sat, 3 Nov
2012, Peter Smyth remarked:

No allowance for standing is made on a service when the time between
stations before (AM) or after (PM) the critical load point is more than
20 minutes

Which is what applies to the train I was describing.

In some cases train operators do not have standing capacities
calculated for their rolling stock based on the available floor area.
In these cases the standing capacities have been estimated as 20 per
cent of the number of standard class seats for long distance rolling
stock, and 35 per cent of the number of standard class seats for
commuter rolling stock. These estimates have been used for Arriva
Trains Wales, CrossCountry, East Midland Trains, East Coast, First
Great Western and Virgin Trains.

Although there can't be many trains run by those operators on the main
lines that come in under the 20-minute rule.
--
Roland Perry

On 02/11/2012 22:27, Jarle H Knudsen wrote:
On 2 Nov 2012 17:51:36 GMT, Neil Williams wrote:

There is no specific number of standing passengers permitted, basically as
many as you can fit. So there is no standard figure that could be used.

No health and safety rules?

No. It would be very hard to enforce it, with a walk-on service.

There have allegedly been cases on older trains of the weight of
passengers distorting the coach, so the doors wouldn't close.


--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

Arthur Figgis wrote:

No. It would be very hard to enforce it, with a walk-on service.

On buses, where there is a stated capacity, it is either unenforced or so
high that you couldn't reasonably get that may on anyway. The one thing
that doesn't usually happen is standing upstairs, though that is more
because people don't do it than because anyone refuses to move the bus
until they go downstairs.

Neil
--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK. Put first name before the at to reply.

Jarle H Knudsen wrote:
On 2 Nov 2012 17:51:36 GMT, Neil Williams wrote:

There is no specific number of standing passengers permitted, basically as
many as you can fit. So there is no standard figure that could be used.

No health and safety rules?

Not as such. Or at least not that are in any way enforced.

Trains regularly run crammed full with standing passengers such that no
more could physically board.

Neil
--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK. Put first name before the at to reply.

On 5 Nov 2012 10:01:57 GMT
Neil Williams wrote:
that doesn't usually happen is standing upstairs, though that is more
because people don't do it than because anyone refuses to move the bus
until they go downstairs.

Its probably because the ceiling is low and the bus sways more on the top
deck so its just too uncomfortable to stand for any length of time.

B2003