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Old November 6th 12, 09:18 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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In article ,
d wrote:
No, I'm not wrong. If you worked it out based on possible journeys from
Zone 2+ into zone 1 for wheelchair users then it would give a better picture
of how well they're are catered for.


OK.

I count 63 Z1 stations[1], of which 7 [2] are step free.

There are 66 stations that are step free; so there are 59 outside
zone 1. This gives disabled passengers 413 "commuter routes".

There are 270 stations in total; so 207 outside zone 1. This gives
non-disabled passengers 13041 "commuter routes".

This means that *by your preferred measure*, 3% of the tube is
accessible, instead of my 6%.

As it happens, disabled people are more likely to be unemployed, so
I suspect my estimate is closer to the scale of the problem than
yours; on the other hand, my analysis totally ignores the issue of
interchanges, which means that they're both overestimates.

I'm also ignoring the folk who travel to London via NR stations -
a disabled person who lives in Woking, for example, will have a
pretty big problem commuting to London even if Waterloo's underground
station is completely accessible.

Put simply: 6% isn't a bad estimate; better estimates would lower,
rather than raise, that figure. At least part of the reason that
you don't see disabled[3] people using the Tube is because it's basically
closed to them.

Cheers,
Mike



[1] From wikipedia, Aldgate, Aldgate East, Angel, Baker Street,
Bank, Barbican, Bayswater, Blackfriars LU, Bond Street, Borough,
Cannon Street LU, Chancery Lane, Charing Cross LU, Covent Garden,
Earl's Court, Edgware Road (Bakerloo), Edgware Road (Circle),
Elephant & Castle LU, Embankment, Euston LU, Euston Square, Farringdon,
Gloucester Road, Goodge Street, Great Portland Street, Green Park,
High Street Kensington, Holborn, Hyde Park Corner, King's Cross St.
Pancras LU, Knightsbridge, Lambeth North, Lancaster Gate, Leicester
Square, Liverpool Street LU, London Bridge LU, Mansion House, Marble
Arch, Marylebone LU, Monument, Moorgate, Notting Hill Gate, Old
Street, Oxford Circus, Paddington LU, Piccadilly Circus, Pimlico,
Queensway, Regent's Park, Russell Square, Sloane Square, South
Kensington, Southwark, St. James's Park, St. Paul's, Temple, Tottenham
Court Road, Tower Hill, Vauxhall LU, Victoria LU, Warren Street,
Waterloo LU, and Westminster

[2] By eyeballing the map, Kings X, Farringdon, Green Park,
Blackfriars, Westminster, Earls Court, and Southwark. I've not
counted Waterloo (as it's only the JLE part that's accessible);
Tower Gateway (as it's the DLR not LUL). I wouldn't be surprised
if I've miscounted.

[3] by which, of course, you mean "obviously disabled". Some
people don't "look" disabled, but still find stairs difficult
or impossible.


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Old November 6th 12, 10:24 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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Mike Bristow wrote:
In article ,
d wrote:
No, I'm not wrong. If you worked it out based on possible journeys from
Zone 2+ into zone 1 for wheelchair users then it would give a better picture
of how well they're are catered for.


OK.

I count 63 Z1 stations[1], of which 7 [2] are step free.

There are 66 stations that are step free; so there are 59 outside
zone 1. This gives disabled passengers 413 "commuter routes".

There are 270 stations in total; so 207 outside zone 1. This gives
non-disabled passengers 13041 "commuter routes".

This means that *by your preferred measure*, 3% of the tube is
accessible, instead of my 6%.

As it happens, disabled people are more likely to be unemployed, so
I suspect my estimate is closer to the scale of the problem than
yours; on the other hand, my analysis totally ignores the issue of
interchanges, which means that they're both overestimates.

I'm also ignoring the folk who travel to London via NR stations -
a disabled person who lives in Woking, for example, will have a
pretty big problem commuting to London even if Waterloo's underground
station is completely accessible.

Put simply: 6% isn't a bad estimate; better estimates would lower,
rather than raise, that figure. At least part of the reason that
you don't see disabled[3] people using the Tube is because it's basically
closed to them.

Cheers,
Mike



[1] From wikipedia, Aldgate, Aldgate East, Angel, Baker Street,
Bank, Barbican, Bayswater, Blackfriars LU, Bond Street, Borough,
Cannon Street LU, Chancery Lane, Charing Cross LU, Covent Garden,
Earl's Court, Edgware Road (Bakerloo), Edgware Road (Circle),
Elephant & Castle LU, Embankment, Euston LU, Euston Square, Farringdon,
Gloucester Road, Goodge Street, Great Portland Street, Green Park,
High Street Kensington, Holborn, Hyde Park Corner, King's Cross St.
Pancras LU, Knightsbridge, Lambeth North, Lancaster Gate, Leicester
Square, Liverpool Street LU, London Bridge LU, Mansion House, Marble
Arch, Marylebone LU, Monument, Moorgate, Notting Hill Gate, Old
Street, Oxford Circus, Paddington LU, Piccadilly Circus, Pimlico,
Queensway, Regent's Park, Russell Square, Sloane Square, South
Kensington, Southwark, St. James's Park, St. Paul's, Temple, Tottenham
Court Road, Tower Hill, Vauxhall LU, Victoria LU, Warren Street,
Waterloo LU, and Westminster

[2] By eyeballing the map, Kings X, Farringdon, Green Park,
Blackfriars, Westminster, Earls Court, and Southwark. I've not
counted Waterloo (as it's only the JLE part that's accessible);
Tower Gateway (as it's the DLR not LUL). I wouldn't be surprised
if I've miscounted.

[3] by which, of course, you mean "obviously disabled". Some
people don't "look" disabled, but still find stairs difficult
or impossible.


There's also the halfway house of the many stations that have escalators
rather than lifts: not very much use to wheelchair users, but very helpful
to many other travellers who may have trouble with stairs, particularly
when carrying luggage.

Like many others, I was in that category for a while after a knee
operation, and so am now much more attentive to stair-free locations, or at
least steps with good handrails. The UK is pretty good at providing
handrails on most staircases in public buildings, much better than many
other countries in, say, east Europe.

Incidentally, I remember the time when both of South Ken's Picc platforms
had stair-free access to road level, which was lost when the lifts were
replaced by escalators and stairs 40 years ago. That wouldn't happen today.
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Old November 7th 12, 08:03 AM posted to uk.transport.london
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In message

, at 17:24:07 on Tue, 6 Nov 2012, Recliner

remarked:
[3] by which, of course, you mean "obviously disabled". Some
people don't "look" disabled, but still find stairs difficult
or impossible.


There's also the halfway house of the many stations that have escalators
rather than lifts: not very much use to wheelchair users, but very helpful
to many other travellers who may have trouble with stairs, particularly
when carrying luggage.


Mindful that many stations with escalators (or indeed original lifts)
aren't completely step-free, typically having a short flight of steps
adjacent to the platform, and often a flight of steps to get from the
ticket concourse to the roadway outside.
--
Roland Perry
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Old November 7th 12, 10:49 AM posted to uk.transport.london
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On Wed, 7 Nov 2012 09:03:20 +0000, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message

, at 17:24:07 on Tue, 6 Nov 2012, Recliner

remarked:
[3] by which, of course, you mean "obviously disabled". Some
people don't "look" disabled, but still find stairs difficult
or impossible.


There's also the halfway house of the many stations that have escalators
rather than lifts: not very much use to wheelchair users, but very helpful
to many other travellers who may have trouble with stairs, particularly
when carrying luggage.


Mindful that many stations with escalators (or indeed original lifts)
aren't completely step-free, typically having a short flight of steps
adjacent to the platform, and often a flight of steps to get from the
ticket concourse to the roadway outside.


Yes, usually caused by the fact that both lines had to be fitted under
the roadway, leaving inadequate space for lifts or escalators between
the lines, so the landings had to be above rather than between the
platform tunnels. Less of a problem with new or rebuilt stations.

But my point remains: as Boltar asserts in his inimitable way, there
are few actual or even potential Tube pax who are completely confined
to wheelchairs, but a much larger number who have limited mobility or
are hauling luggage, pushchairs, etc. They can probably manage short
staircases and escalators, but struggle with long staircases.
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