Paul Corfield wrote on 14 December 2012 23:30:22 ...
On Fri, 14 Dec 2012 22:27:56 +0000, "Richard J."
wrote:

Paul Corfield wrote on 14 December 2012 13:38:30 ...

Oh and while we're on this subject please tell me what fool proof
system Paris or Berlin use that prevents exactly the same problem
happening to tourists? Last time I used a bus in Paris I was turfed
off a bus that was short turned. No one told me what I or anyone else
had to do when the next bus turned up.

In Paris, the standard single-journey "t+" ticket is valid for a journey
made up of several bus segments, so presumably you are meant to validate
it again on the next bus, as you would do if you were changing routes.
I'm not sure whether the system would regard that as a breach of the
no-break-of-journey rule on a single route. I suspect it just checks
against the maximum 1.5 hour journey time.

Yes but where I was told this by the evil money grabbing megalomaniacs
that run RATP who just want to steal my tourist Euros? :-)

Huh? These are the money grabbing megalomaniacs that offer you a cash
fare in zone 1 of the equivalent of £1.04 (if you buy a carnet of 10
tickets, othewise £1.39). I can see you were just itching to do a
Boltar if a non-London opportunity arose. :-)

I don't mind criticism provided it is rooted somewhere in reality and
not drowning in unfounded hyperbole.

Unless it's about Paris, apparently. :-)
--
Richard J.
(to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address)

Paul Corfield wrote on 15 December 2012 23:54:30 ...
On Sat, 15 Dec 2012 22:33:11 +0000, "Richard J."
wrote:

Paul Corfield wrote on 14 December 2012 23:30:22 ...
On Fri, 14 Dec 2012 22:27:56 +0000, "Richard J."
wrote:

Paul Corfield wrote on 14 December 2012 13:38:30 ...

Oh and while we're on this subject please tell me what fool proof
system Paris or Berlin use that prevents exactly the same problem
happening to tourists? Last time I used a bus in Paris I was turfed
off a bus that was short turned. No one told me what I or anyone else
had to do when the next bus turned up.

In Paris, the standard single-journey "t+" ticket is valid for a journey
made up of several bus segments, so presumably you are meant to validate
it again on the next bus, as you would do if you were changing routes.
I'm not sure whether the system would regard that as a breach of the
no-break-of-journey rule on a single route. I suspect it just checks
against the maximum 1.5 hour journey time.

Yes but where I was told this by the evil money grabbing megalomaniacs
that run RATP who just want to steal my tourist Euros? :-)

Huh? These are the money grabbing megalomaniacs that offer you a cash
fare in zone 1 of the equivalent of £1.04 (if you buy a carnet of 10
tickets, othewise £1.39). I can see you were just itching to do a
Boltar if a non-London opportunity arose. :-)

Oh I am not worthy of out-boltaring Boltar. The Master cannot be
beaten.

I don't mind criticism provided it is rooted somewhere in reality and
not drowning in unfounded hyperbole.

Unless it's about Paris, apparently. :-)

Err there was a smiley you know even though Paris is no better at
telling you what happens to your ticket, in the event of a bus
curtailment, than London is. I am simply pointing out that rules that
cover "unusual" events are rarely overt and rarely published in other
than the main language of the Country in question. The OP was trying
to portray TfL as somehow worse than everywhere else tourists go and
that they were deliberately perpetrating a scam. I am merely
suggesting they're just the same as everywhere else. I'd love to know
where, for example, the English language version of Keio Bus's (of
Tokyo) commercial rules is?!

Agreed. Indeed, my uncertainty about the precise rules in Paris was
because even the French-language explanation on the RATP site was
unclear. I doubt whether it's mentioned at all in the limited
English-language subset - let me have a look .....

Haha! There's a link to a "Ticket t+ information sheet", but it
produces "404 non trouvé"!

--
Richard J.
(to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address)

In message , at 18:32:21 on
Sat, 15 Dec 2012, Paul Corfield remarked:

"...Each bus journey made using your contactless card will be shown
as a separate transaction on your bank or card statement."

When they extend the system to the tube, will the bank statement have a
series of transactions for each trip - like an Oyster receipt? In other
words an entry charge, a refund on exit and all those other entries
generated when you do an OSI. And what about Pink validators, how will
they be shown on your bill?

Similar question about how your bill will present you information about
reaching the daily cap.

The honest answer is that I don't know. All I have managed to glean
from reading bits and bobs is that TfL will process all of the
transactions to determine the charge to be made.

I assume TfL will take the sequence of txns from readers and then
place them in journey sequence and then calculate fares and any caps
due. Passengers will surely need to register their card on pink
validators in order for TfL to be able to process the correct fare? I
assume that the new "TfL black box" that will do the processing will
apply all of the same logic that gates and Oyster cards apply in order
to determine the end charge. I would guess that things like OSI time
parameters will be applied to determine if journeys are continuous or
not. I don't see there would be any benefit in making step by step
financial adjustments on someone's bank account.

The main benefit of doing it would be to expose the audit trail to the
user, to give them the same information as currently available with
Oyster.

On the same theme, will a Paywave card be usable on a ticket machine to
display the last few journeys?

It will be the actual fare paid or cap applied that will be deducted.

That contradicts the "each bus journey will be shown" statement above,
at least as long as the scheme doesn't change when they introduce daily
capping for buses, at which point either the 4th trip will show as 20p
and subsequent ones as 0p, or they'll just show the £4.40 as a single
line item.

My guess is that TfL will say that for multi modal capping to work
properly that card holders will be required to have an online account
with TfL. This would then provide a facility for card holders to review
the journeys and charges that the "black box" has calculated prior to
there being a deduction from someone's bank account.

"In late 2013, you'll be able to use your contactless payment card on:
Tube/DLR/Trams/OG. By then, you'll also be able to check your journey
history online, which means you can see where you've been and how much
it cost." http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/proj...mes/19976.aspx

They don't say where online though. But the next sentence is: "And
because everything will be managed by your card issuer, it means the
whole system is secure." So if the journey history is part of
"everything" (why would it not be, or is this a drafting error), that
means at the very least an Oyster-like site run by the banks, if not
your actual card statement (not everyone has online card statements
enabled).

The Oyster site has been enhanced so you can now request Weekly or
Monthly journey history. Not sure if that is the overview history or the
detailed one. And it says I'll get a statement "in the first few days of
the month", is that the 1st/2nd or anniversaries of subscribing (I
subscribed today, so that'll be 17th/18th).

Meanwhile, I see the bus-wave scheme is currently not as open as one
might suppose. I note that in the small print that: "If you have a
credit, debit or charge card that has been issued *in the UK* (My
emphasis). http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/26416.aspx.

Which seems to blow the foreign tourist market out of the water. Maybe
this is because they've only managed to get the UK banks to agree the
100%-PINless mode and/or 0P transactions.

Also, I'm told it that prepay cards are excluded, which again are
increasingly marketed as a replacement for cash to tourists.

http://www.visaeurope.com/en/cardholders/prepaid.aspx

In both cases it's a shame the first time most tourists will get to see
a Paywave symbol in the UK, it won't work.
Of course, the risk with a pre-pay card is that it's empty, which you
can't tell offline.

Finally, I see that: "Although your Barclaycard OnePulse has contactless
technology built in, it will only be recognised on(sic) as an Oyster
card and cannot be used for contactless payments on London's buses."
which answers another of the 'open issues' we had.

I note that the TfL Oyster on line account facility now prompts you if
you have an incomplete journey.

One more hurdle to get to your journey history Their website is
almost unusable on a mobile phone.

I haven't had any so don't know what
happens if you have one but I assume you are asked to confirm what
station you entered or exited at so a charge can be calculated and the
"maximum fare" charge will be revoked and the correct fare charged.

And you'll apparently get a refund which has to be "collected" from a
nominated station.

Alternatively it may work on the basis that if the "black box" cannot
calculate a charge that card holders are notified and asked to review
any incomplete or timed out journeys before any charge is made.

I doubt they'll refrain from making maximum charges, awaiting the user
to log in (wherever that might be) to claim a refund. However, those
refunds might be sent to you straight away, rather than needing
"collection" from a gate.

I would expect the 8 week data retention parameter to remain

It might be more prudent to harmonise it with the card companys' window
for raising chargeback complaints. 90 days??

I can't believe that the banks will want to have to deal with
customers who feel they are wrongly charged when the bank is not
responsible for calculating the charge.

"everything will be managed by your card issuer" according to the TfL
website... [What, even the Paywave equivalent of the Oyster helpline.
What is that, by the way, anyone know?]

I am also doubtful that customers will want TfL to have the right to
impose whatever level of charge on their accounts without the express
ability for customers to review the proposed charge and challenge it if
necessary.

Agreed, so unless there's something in the Card Conditions for Paywave
that would allow the charging of "penalties" for incomplete journeys
then some cardholders are going to feel they've been charged without
justification.

Given the huge complexity of the fare structure...

We'll have to see if Paywave holders are more (or less) forgiving about
perceived overcharging.

Will there be such things as "off peak weekly caps" in the future?

In theory there cold be all sorts of "special offers", but every one
makes the structure more complex and further away from a flat-fare
experience.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 09:04:14 on Sun, 16 Dec
2012, Roland Perry remarked:
Meanwhile, I see the bus-wave scheme is currently not as open as one
might suppose. I note that in the small print that: "If you have a
credit, debit or charge card that has been issued *in the UK* (My
emphasis). http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/26416.aspx.
....
Also, I'm told it that prepay cards are excluded, which again are
increasingly marketed as a replacement for cash to tourists.

And yet another class of possibly disadvantaged cards has crawled out
the woodwork today.

What about debit cards owned by minors, which apparently aren't allowed
to go into overdraft (in effect the "Electron acceptance issue"). Are
they going to be excluded from the TfL bus scheme on the grounds that
it's not online and so the credentials of such customers can't be
verified?
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 17:43:57 on
Sun, 16 Dec 2012, Paul Corfield remarked:

Come on Roland - you are expecting all the answers to the end state of
the scheme which is not due for at least a year.

If it's all not already in the plans for the implementation team, then
they would seem to be making things up as they go along. I hope that's
not the case.
--
Roland Perry

On Sat, 15 Dec 2012 23:54:30 +0000
Paul Corfield wrote:
fare in zone 1 of the equivalent of £1.04 (if you buy a carnet of 10
tickets, othewise £1.39). I can see you were just itching to do a
Boltar if a non-London opportunity arose. :-)

Oh I am not worthy of out-boltaring Boltar. The Master cannot be
beaten.

Quite so. Though some poor fools still don't realise this. Yet.

[strokes white cat]

B2003

In message , at 20:12:14 on
Sun, 16 Dec 2012, Paul Corfield remarked:
Come on Roland - you are expecting all the answers to the end state of
the scheme which is not due for at least a year.

If it's all not already in the plans for the implementation team, then
they would seem to be making things up as they go along. I hope that's
not the case.

That is not what I said. I would expect that the design and
development is signed off by now and implementation / testing should
be well under way. Design and development info is not made public on
the TfL website - you know that. Any info would most likely surface
via the "conference circuit" and Google throws up one or two
standardised TfL presentations that give a scheme overview but little
detail. Again hardly unexpected.

It is clear from reading the TfL quarterly investment reports that TfL
have been asked to prioritise work on ITSO integration by the DfT. The
only other issue that has been mentioned in those documents is the
banks asking for revisions to security controls. I don't believe that
translates to "making it up as you go along".

Railway projects usually get a fair few years of advance information to
the public (or a few decades for something like Thameslink or
Crossrail).

All the questions I asked should have solid answers by now. Why are they
so afraid to publish the vision of how it'll all work in a couple of
years?
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry wrote:

Which implies that an almost unlimited amount of historic transaction
information is sent with every wave.

Not really, the retailer's POS system can do this with nothing more than
the card number.

Bus ticket inspections could be done by having the ticket machine print out
a ticket containing the last 4 digits of each credit card used during that
journey, perhaps. Or more technologically, communicate it to the
electronic gripping irons.

Neil
--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK. Put first name before the at to reply.

In message , at 22:42:01 on
Sun, 16 Dec 2012, Paul Corfield remarked:
I wish you the very best of luck in getting a fully detailed response
that fully satisfies your curiosity and resolves all of your
preferences as to how you believe the system must work.

I think you have the wrong end of the stick. I'm looking at this through
the lens of a project manager. You seem to be taking it as personal
criticism, but you don't even work for them any more, iirc.

This is clearly an ambitious project, but they must have a plan (despite
the current lack of transparency making it look like they are making it
up as they go along, eg the way that the treatment of OnePulse cards has
only just emerged, and they don't yet mention whether pre-pay cards work
or not).

If their plan doesn't include all the aspects I discussed, it's not much
of a plan.

In the mean time they seem to be over-selling the very few aspects that
have been implemented on the buses: viz it doesn't work for non-UK
cards, and it probably doesn't work for prepay cards or those associated
with an under-18 bank account.

And despite saying "everything"(sic) being done by the customer's bank,
there's no information about who to call (bank or TfL, and if the latter
the Oyster helpline or somewhere else) if you suspect a problem, nor any
detail about who will be running the online registration and statement
system.

I am concerned that they are letting themselves down by this
half-hearted approach to telling the public what it's going to be like
when it's all finished.
--
Roland Perry

In message
.
net, at 07:55:38 on Mon, 17 Dec 2012, Neil Williams
remarked:
Which implies that an almost unlimited amount of historic transaction
information is sent with every wave.

Not really, the retailer's POS system can do this with nothing more than
the card number.

But the facility in question is being sold as an *alternative* to the
retailer having to install such a POS system with instant access to
their internal database of historical transactions.

Bus ticket inspections could be done by having the ticket machine print out
a ticket containing the last 4 digits of each credit card used during that
journey, perhaps. Or more technologically, communicate it to the
electronic gripping irons.

They could, yes. But *are* they? (Minor niggle: the Paywave terminals on
the buses don't have printers).
--
Roland Perry