On Sun, 06 Jan 2013 18:07:35 -0600,
wrote:

In article
,
(Recliner) wrote:

That was the claim which I find hard to credit given how long the
waits were for trains at Northfields and Acton Town. The signalling
didn't appear to allow reversal in platforms and the PIS was
non-existent unless you could hear the announcements.

Presumably there were two Picc shuttles and one District shuttle running
into a station that normally has mainly through trains? A few trains do
reverse there, using the sidings on each side of the station, but
certainly not three shuttles from the west, so I'm not surprised that the
capacity was very limited. What might have been cool would have been to
allow pax to stay on the train during the reversal, thus getting them to
the opposite platform without using the stairs or lifts, but I suppose
that's not allowed.

Were there three shuttles though? I'm not sure the Piccadilly wasn't
shuttling from Ealing Common (to Rayners Lane and ?beyond).

Yes, I think you're right about that.

On Mon, 7 Jan 2013 12:14:15 +0000
Steve Fitzgerald ] wrote:
Oh one point I missed. The Piccadilly would not reverse east to west at
ECM either as that would require running via the depot reception roads
and the Picc drivers don't have that route knowledge and would require a
pilot. It was done a few years ago when work at Acton stopped them
getting into the platforms.

I can understand route knowledge being required for high speed trains or
eurostars or any system where stopping takes an age - by why does a tube
driver trundling along at 20mph need it? Surely he'll see any signals and
sharp bends long before he'll have to brake for them.

B2003

On Mon, 7 Jan 2013 12:36:33 +0000 (UTC), d
wrote:

On Mon, 7 Jan 2013 12:14:15 +0000
Steve Fitzgerald ] wrote:
Oh one point I missed. The Piccadilly would not reverse east to west at
ECM either as that would require running via the depot reception roads
and the Picc drivers don't have that route knowledge and would require a
pilot. It was done a few years ago when work at Acton stopped them
getting into the platforms.

I can understand route knowledge being required for high speed trains or
eurostars or any system where stopping takes an age - by why does a tube
driver trundling along at 20mph need it? Surely he'll see any signals and
sharp bends long before he'll have to brake for them.

Plus, with so few trains running, surely there would be spare District
and Picc drivers available to act as pilots?

In message , at 03:04:56
on Mon, 7 Jan 2013, remarked:

Huh? Where did business class come into it?

You mentioned business passengers.

Travelling at times other than the first weekend after the new year!

With the implication that they'd been substituted by luggage encumbered
tourists- but then you said the seats were empty.

Certainly on my flight there was almost no-one in business class

So maybe the airport was quieter than usual.

No, it was full of people in Economy with lots of luggage! Do keep up,
Roland!

Economy is always full of people with lots of luggage. The empty seats
in Business Class is where the quietness arises.

but there were a lot of people in Economy with a lot of luggage.

There always are.

Not so much luggage in the summer.

with the current allowances I think people have the same amount of
luggage all year round.
--
Roland Perry

On Mon, 7 Jan 2013 13:22:58 +0000
Steve Fitzgerald ] wrote:
Does he know how to respond to them though? Has he been given a correct
route that it's safe to accept? Would accepting the route derail the
train? Even if it's slow speed, the HMRI take a rather dim view of us

Surely its a given that if the signal is green then its safe to move the
train? Otherwise whats the point of having signals??

Some of the signals have 'local' meanings that only a driver with the
appropriate route knowledge would know.

We're only talking about a short diversion though, not driving the whole line.

Though I suspect it cars were invented today some health and safety wonk
would make a case for car drivers not being allowed on a given road until
they'd been "trained" on it first.

B2003

In article , wrote:
On Mon, 7 Jan 2013 13:22:58 +0000
Steve Fitzgerald ] wrote:
Does he know how to respond to them though? Has he been given a correct
route that it's safe to accept? Would accepting the route derail the
train? Even if it's slow speed, the HMRI take a rather dim view of us

Surely its a given that if the signal is green then its safe to move the
train? Otherwise whats the point of having signals??

Some of the signals have 'local' meanings that only a driver with the
appropriate route knowledge would know.

We're only talking about a short diversion though, not driving the whole line.

Though I suspect it cars were invented today some health and safety wonk
would make a case for car drivers not being allowed on a given road until
they'd been "trained" on it first.

They'd obviously have to have a man with a red flag walking in front,
due to the potential for harm to others from inattention or excessive speed.

Nick
--
"The Internet, a sort of ersatz counterfeit of real life"
-- Janet Street-Porter, BBC2, 19th March 1996

On Mon, 7 Jan 2013 14:14:28 +0000 (UTC)
Nick Leverton wrote:
Though I suspect it cars were invented today some health and safety wonk
would make a case for car drivers not being allowed on a given road until
they'd been "trained" on it first.

They'd obviously have to have a man with a red flag walking in front,
due to the potential for harm to others from inattention or excessive speed.

A red flag? Your joking. There would have to be at least 2 men - one in front
and one behind - both wearing full dayglo jackets and helmets with flashing
amber lights on them and warning sirens. And you'd need 2 men to sit in the
back of your car so that when the 2 outside have done their regulation 30 mins
they can swap over.

B2003

In article , (Roland Perry)
wrote:

In message , at
03:04:56 on Mon, 7 Jan 2013, remarked:

Huh? Where did business class come into it?

You mentioned business passengers.

Travelling at times other than the first weekend after the new year!

With the implication that they'd been substituted by luggage
encumbered tourists- but then you said the seats were empty.

There were few Business Class seats and they were not very full. The economy
seats were full.

Certainly on my flight there was almost no-one in business class

So maybe the airport was quieter than usual.

No, it was full of people in Economy with lots of luggage! Do keep up,
Roland!

Economy is always full of people with lots of luggage. The empty
seats in Business Class is where the quietness arises.

Luggage amounts do vary by season I think you'll find.

but there were a lot of people in Economy with a lot of luggage.

There always are.

Not so much luggage in the summer.

with the current allowances I think people have the same amount of
luggage all year round.

Evidence?

--
Colin Rosenstiel

wrote:
In article , (Roland Perry)
wrote:

In message , at
03:04:56 on Mon, 7 Jan 2013, remarked:

Huh? Where did business class come into it?

You mentioned business passengers.

Travelling at times other than the first weekend after the new year!

With the implication that they'd been substituted by luggage
encumbered tourists- but then you said the seats were empty.

There were few Business Class seats and they were not very full. The economy
seats were full.

Certainly on my flight there was almost no-one in business class

So maybe the airport was quieter than usual.

No, it was full of people in Economy with lots of luggage! Do keep up,
Roland!

Economy is always full of people with lots of luggage. The empty
seats in Business Class is where the quietness arises.

Luggage amounts do vary by season I think you'll find.

but there were a lot of people in Economy with a lot of luggage.

There always are.

Not so much luggage in the summer.

with the current allowances I think people have the same amount of
luggage all year round.

Evidence?

Heathrow Y class pax are allowed one free suitcase plus a larger and a
smaller carry-on bag. Do winter Y class pax exceed this, or summer Y class
not fully use it?

In message , d
wrote:
Does he know how to respond to them though? Has he been given a correct
route that it's safe to accept? Would accepting the route derail the
train? Even if it's slow speed, the HMRI take a rather dim view of us

Surely its a given that if the signal is green then its safe to move the
train? Otherwise whats the point of having signals??

It's safe in one sense - there should be no conflicting trains and the
points should all be locked in the correct position. It's not
necessarily safe in every sense. For example:
- If this is a District Line train, is the signal sending it to a tube
line?
- (Elsewhere) if this is an electric train, is the signal sending it to
a line with no electrification?

There are many more subtle cases:

Some of the signals have 'local' meanings that only a driver with the
appropriate route knowledge would know.

We're only talking about a short diversion though, not driving the whole line.

But, for example, the driver won't know where to look for the next
signal, and on a complicated layout that is significant. Yes, this is LU
so the train stop will get him if he gets it wrong, but that will delay
things even more.

You might want to read these pages on the topic of route knowledge:

http://www.rossrail.co.uk/central/rknow.html
http://www.rossrail.co.uk/central/rknow2.html

--
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