Last night, while trying to get from Gatwick Airport to E9, Google's journey planner came up the fastest route being via Clapham Junction and the Overground.

Gatwick to Whitechapel is £20.60 for an Anytime single; versus £11.20 for an Anytime single from Gatwick to Clapham Junction plus £1.50 off-peak Oyster single for the remainder of the journey. Obviously I went for the latter.

With only a couple of minutes to make the change, I couldn't see any obvious Oyster validators on platforms 1&2. A man in a high visibility tabard with a roundel on the back directed me down to the subway, where I was told that I should lean over the gateline and tap in on the entry reader.

Is this really how it's meant to be done? I was expecting a standalone reader on the platform - like on the Victoria Line at Finsbury Park.

- martin

In article ,
(martin) wrote:

Last night, while trying to get from Gatwick Airport to E9, Google's
journey planner came up the fastest route being via Clapham Junction
and the Overground.

Gatwick to Whitechapel is £20.60 for an Anytime single; versus £11.20
for an Anytime single from Gatwick to Clapham Junction plus £1.50
off-peak Oyster single for the remainder of the journey. Obviously I
went for the latter.

With only a couple of minutes to make the change, I couldn't see any
obvious Oyster validators on platforms 1&2. A man in a high
visibility tabard with a roundel on the back directed me down to the
subway, where I was told that I should lean over the gateline and tap
in on the entry reader.

Is this really how it's meant to be done? I was expecting a
standalone reader on the platform - like on the Victoria Line at
Finsbury Park.

Lucky you didn't want to use the pink reader at Willesden Junction to avoid
being charged for going via Zone 1. You have to go all round the station to
find it.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In article ,
(Paul Corfield) wrote:

On Mon, 20 May 2013 06:31:41 -0700 (PDT), martin
wrote:

Last night, while trying to get from Gatwick Airport to E9, Google's
journey planner came up the fastest route being via Clapham Junction
and the Overground.

Gatwick to Whitechapel is £20.60 for an Anytime single; versus £11.20 for
an Anytime single from Gatwick to Clapham Junction plus £1.50 off-peak
Oyster single for the remainder of the journey.
Obviously I went for the latter.

With only a couple of minutes to make the change, I couldn't see any
obvious Oyster validators on platforms 1&2. A man in a high visibility
tabard with a roundel on the back directed me down to the subway, where
I was told that I should lean over the gateline and tap in on the entry
reader.

Is this really how it's meant to be done? I was expecting a standalone
reader on the platform - like on the Victoria Line at Finsbury Park.

Yes it is, unfortunately. There used to be "in / out" validators on
the overground platform but they were removed when the works were done
to expand the platforms and stairs for the new Overground service. I
have read somewhere that SWT refused to have *any* Oyster validators
on any platform at Clapham Junction because of fraud concerns. This
forces people who need to break or start / end journeys to exit and
re-enter. This applies for people with Travelcards who are within
their validity. Solely using PAYG means you'd be charged via Z1 even
if you didn't go that route because there is only one default fare for
many origin / destination pairs. I suspect, but cannot prove, that
this is also a demand from SWT which boosts their share of revenue for
such journeys.

Last year I had a Z23 Travelcard and often went round by overground to
avoid Z1 even though the journey time was much longer. However for
journeys in Z2 or Z3 beyond CJ the Oyster system assumes you go via
Zone 1 even if you validate at somewhere like Gospel Oak on a pink
validator. The only way to avoid being charged for Zone 1 for jnys
via CJ (from my part of London) is to break the journey at CJ. This
means exiting and re-entering. In a sane world, without paranoia in
charge of ticketing, there would at least be pink validators at CJ to
allow people to indicate they have travelled via Overground to CJ if
continuing via Southern or SWT services. There would also be matching
lower fares routed via Clapham Junction as alternative routes.

An example would be Blackhorse Rd - Wandsworth Town. Clearly there
are several routes - tube to Waterloo & SWT, tube to Vauxhall & SWT,
Overground to CJ & SWT. The latter alternative route is not in the
single fare finder so even though it is entirely within Zones 2 and 3
and you would not go out of zone on a Z23 Travelcard you would still
be charged for Z1. The only way to avoid being done for £2.10 is to
exit at Clapham Junction at the end of the Overground jny and then
re-enter and catch the SWT service to Wandsworth Town.

I had a similar problem with Highbury & Islington to Putney via CJ. The
conclusion here was that the problem was travelling on SWT with NR fare
scales. So Overground journeys starting at CJ should be OK. I did have to
find the pink validator at Willesden Junction though.

I should say that some journeys are routed across CJ and charged as
avoiding Zone 1 - principally from the Watford DC line on to the SLL
Overground route. The assumption is that people travel via the WLL
rather than via Z1.


--
Colin Rosenstiel

On Mon, May 20, 2013 at 06:31:41AM -0700, martin wrote:

A man in a high visibility tabard wit=
h a roundel on the back directed me down to the subway, where I was told th=
at I should lean over the gateline and tap in on the entry reader.

Is this really how it's meant to be done? I was expecting a standalone read=
er on the platform - like on the Victoria Line at Finsbury Park.

There certainly used to be Oyster things on platform 2.

--
David Cantrell | Nth greatest programmer in the world

I know that you believe you understand what you think you wrote, but
I'm not sure you realize that what you wrote is not what you meant.

On Mon, 20 May 2013 16:25:14 -0500,
wrote:


Lucky you didn't want to use the pink reader at Willesden Junction to avoid
being charged for going via Zone 1. You have to go all round the station to
find it.

It's on the traditional route between the Bakerloo and the Overground
so not that difficult. I do agree that there should be another, or a
warning sign, on the new route between them. When this was first
brought into use I used it until I discovered that I was being charged
for Z1 even though the overall length of the journey was too short for
me to have travelled via Z1. When I tried to be refunded I couldn't
get anyone to be interested in the issue.

On 21/05/2013 11:25, David Cantrell wrote:

On Mon, May 20, 2013 at 06:31:41AM -0700, martin wrote:
A man in a high visibility tabard with a roundel on the back
directed me down to the subway, where I was told that I should
lean over the gateline and tap in on the entry reader.

Is this really how it's meant to be done? I was expecting a
standalone reader on the platform - like on the Victoria Line
at Finsbury Park.

There certainly used to be Oyster things on platform 2.

No longer though. It possibly went when (or shortly after) Oyster PAYG
was extended across NR in 2010.

In article ,
(Paul Corfield) wrote:

On Mon, 20 May 2013 18:26:00 -0500,
wrote:

In article ,
(Paul Corfield) wrote:

An example would be Blackhorse Rd - Wandsworth Town. Clearly there
are several routes - tube to Waterloo & SWT, tube to Vauxhall & SWT,
Overground to CJ & SWT. The latter alternative route is not in the
single fare finder so even though it is entirely within Zones 2 and 3
and you would not go out of zone on a Z23 Travelcard you would still
be charged for Z1. The only way to avoid being done for £2.10 is to
exit at Clapham Junction at the end of the Overground jny and then
re-enter and catch the SWT service to Wandsworth Town.

I had a similar problem with Highbury & Islington to Putney via CJ. The
conclusion here was that the problem was travelling on SWT with NR fare
scales. So Overground journeys starting at CJ should be OK. I did have to
find the pink validator at Willesden Junction though.

Being a tad pedantic that is not really the issue. The issue is that
there is only route and fare option from H&I to Putney (NR). The
assumption is that you travel via Z1 and will be charged on that
basis. It matters not what pink validators you touch or what route you
take - they will not change the fare charged.

There *are* alternative fares for H&I to East Putney. The base fare is
via Z1 using the tube. The alternatives allow for a non Z1 jny but you
must touch on pink validators at West Brompton. The other fare options
are if you travel via Vauxhall or a Z1 main line terminal and use NR
to Wimbledon and then use the tube.

I was thinking of Highbury to Clapham Junction which does have a not via
Zone 1 fare IIRC.

The fundamental question remains as to why there are so many options
to East Putney but none for Putney (NR).

Indeed. I blame SWT.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Paul Corfield wrote:

There used to be "in / out" validators on
the overground platform but they were removed when the works were done
to expand the platforms and stairs for the new Overground service. I
have read somewhere that SWT refused to have *any* Oyster validators
on any platform at Clapham Junction because of fraud concerns. This
forces people who need to break or start / end journeys to exit and
re-enter. This applies for people with Travelcards who are within
their validity. Solely using PAYG means you'd be charged via Z1 even
if you didn't go that route because there is only one default fare for
many origin / destination pairs. I suspect, but cannot prove, that
this is also a demand from SWT which boosts their share of revenue for
such journeys.

Is this the same for travel from south London to east London via the, erm,
new Overground route? (Are we supposed to call it the "South London Line" or
is that name still for broader services?) A few weeks ago I was travelling
back from Croydon and decided to give the new route a try. I couldn't find
any platform readers at Clapham so assumed the system is sufficiently
intelligent that they aren't need it and it would automatically know I'd
gone this way. Later in the journey I used the pink validators at Canada
Water which I've always understood to be a way of signalling travel outside
Zone 1 but this thread has left me less sure.

And just to complicate matters, I could in theory have taken a stopper from
East Croydon and changed onto the East London line en route and gone nowhere
near Clapham Junction without making any different touch ins and outs.

--
My blog: http://adf.ly/4hi4c

In message of Sat, 25 May 2013
02:58:58 in uk.transport.london, Tim Roll-Pickering T.C.Roll-
writes
Paul Corfield wrote:

There used to be "in / out" validators on
the overground platform but they were removed when the works were done
to expand the platforms and stairs for the new Overground service. I
have read somewhere that SWT refused to have *any* Oyster validators
on any platform at Clapham Junction because of fraud concerns. This
forces people who need to break or start / end journeys to exit and
re-enter. This applies for people with Travelcards who are within
their validity. Solely using PAYG means you'd be charged via Z1 even
if you didn't go that route because there is only one default fare for
many origin / destination pairs. I suspect, but cannot prove, that
this is also a demand from SWT which boosts their share of revenue for
such journeys.

Is this the same for travel from south London to east London via the, erm,
new Overground route? (Are we supposed to call it the "South London Line" or
is that name still for broader services?) A few weeks ago I was travelling
back from Croydon and decided to give the new route a try. I couldn't find
any platform readers at Clapham so assumed the system is sufficiently
intelligent that they aren't need it and it would automatically know I'd
gone this way. Later in the journey I used the pink validators at Canada
Water which I've always understood to be a way of signalling travel outside
Zone 1 but this thread has left me less sure.

And just to complicate matters, I could in theory have taken a stopper from
East Croydon and changed onto the East London line en route and gone nowhere
near Clapham Junction without making any different touch ins and outs.


The single fare finder http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/tickets/faresandticket
s/farefinder/current/default.aspx between East Croydon and Barking
charges £6.20/£4.30 by default or £3.20/£2.20. For the latter prices,
"... you must touch on the pink card reader on the Oyster route
validator if interchanging at Canada Water or Whitechapel".
Your going via Clapham Junction does not seem to affect that.

The Journey Planner can be persuaded to select appropriate routes.
e.g. by default
http://journeyplanner.tfl.gov.uk/use...language=en&se
ssionID=0&type_origin=stop&name_origin=east%20croy don&type_destination=s
top&name_destination=barking%20underground%20stati on

To cause Zone 1 to be avoided, I specify "via Shadwell" below:
http://journeyplanner.tfl.gov.uk/use...language=en&se
ssionID=0&type_origin=stop&name_origin=east%20croy don&type_destination=s
top&name_destination=barking%20underground%20stati on&type_via=stop&name_
via=shadwell

[As the journey planner URL interface sometimes finds "barking"
ambiguous above, "barking underground station" is used instead. I can't
get ambiguity consistently. ;(]

The journeys avoiding zone 1 are about 5 minutes slower.

[Pink card reader usage does not show on station ticket machines, but
does show for known cards on online journey history.]

Boundary interchange between the Oyster network and the National Rail
network is unreasonably dealt with for customers using Pay As You Go.
The OP's change at Clapham Junction shows this. My son makes occasional
trips between zone 1 and Hershen. he is expected to touch out and in at
Surbiton or not use Oyster. The original Oyster network seems to handle
things well. cf. http://www.oyster-rail.org.uk/same-station-
continuation-exits/
--
Walter Briscoe