I rode one for the first time yesterday. The 24 is a route which I use
every few weeks, and I just happened to be using it yesterday, intending to
do the usual journey, Hampstead Heath to Victoria.

Arrived at the Hampstead terminus in the mid afternoon. Just missed one
bus, but there were three others waiting, and a fourth about to enter. One
of the waiting ones moved out to the stop just a couple of minutes later.
Why so many, this isn't usual?

I entered by the front door, and went up the front stairs. Only a handful
of passengers, not surprising since there had been another bus just before
it. Personally, I think they look ugly from the outside, but I really don't
care what they look like, I'm more concerned about such things as safety,
reliability and fuel economy.

First impression was that they look more spacious internally than I
expected, there's a lot of leg room, probably more than necessary; If they'd
reduced it a bit would it have been possible to fit in an extra row of
seats? They're quiet, and don't vibrate like some of the older buses do.
the bus was still very clean at this time.

There was considerable interest in the buses at the Hampstead end of the
route, with lots photographs being taken by people of all ages, races,
genders etc., including two young Muslim women, who don't really fit the
stereotypical image of a bus spotter.

At one point I could see two other buses on the same route in front of us,
and two coming the other way, so I didn't think it was too much of a problem
when our bus was terminated at Trafalgar Square. I was wrong. The bus in
front left the stop before I could get to it. Given how closely they had
been running I wasn't worried, but the display at the stop showed nothing
for 13 minutes, then two buses at that time, then another two in 17 minutes,
so four buses in just four minutes, then a slightly longer gap, then several
more within less than half an hour in total, Nothing turned up in the time
that the first four buses had been shown. I think it was just over 20
minutes when one came, but only going to Parliament Square. Eventually, a
Pimlico arrived, but almost full even after a few passengers had alighted
and with a large crowd waiting at the stop no hope of getting on. After
another long wait another one turned up, and I just managed to squeeze on.
This was at about 17:50, almost 50 minutes after I had alighted from the
first bus.

Why was the regulation so bad? The traffic was heavy, but no worse than it
often is in that part of town. There were a lot of people in Hi-Vis around;
some in the Camden area seemed to be associated with the replacement bus
service for the Northern Line, a large part of which is closed this weekend,
but others seemed to be advising bus passengers, including directing them to
other doors, rather than all trying to board at the front.

I'm really not sure that these buses work well in crowded conditions.
Having passengers alighting and boarding at the same doors might work if
those waiting to board stood back to allow others to alight first, but they
don't. Despite having three doors, the new buses seem to spend longer at
the stops than more conventional ones.

All of the new buses which I saw yesterday were being operated in 'open
platform' mode, with a conductor. I was quite surprised by this; I thought
the idea would be dropped before they actually entered service. In at least
one case several passengers were standing on the platform area by the open
doors. I know we sometimes used to get on and off (slowly) moving buses in
Routemaster days, but it's been a long time since anybody thought it was a
good idea to build a new bus design with an open platform, and the behaviour
of some passengers seems to have become more idiotic than in the past, and I
saw two incidents in which thankfully nobody was harmed, but they could have
become serious accidents. If the buses continue to operate in this mode,
and passengers don't become more sensible, then I predict that serious
accidents will occur. How do the rear doors work in 'closed doors' mode; do
they open and close with the other doors, or are they simply closed and
locked manually and remain out of use, with just the front and centre doors
in service?

Due to leg problems I find it difficult and painful to stand for long, but
fortunately managed to get a seat at the rear of the lower deck for the last
few stops to Victoria. I was in a rear-facing seat, and without doors it
was actually quite difficult to know when the bus had actually reached the
stop; because the bus was very crowded it was quite difficult to see the
front and centre doors behind me. A number of other passengers seemed to
have the same problem, waiting on the rear platform, then getting off
thinking that the bus was at the stop, when it was just held up it traffic
and it started to move again as they were alighting. The conductors did not
always warn passengers in this situation, and when they did the passengers
did not always heed the advice.

With three doors, two sets of stairs, luggage and wheelchair space there's
not much room left for seats on the lower deck. I think they might work
better, at least at busy times with the front stairs being 'up', and the
rear ones 'down'. Didn't some of the old Blackpool trams work in that way?

In short, I'd say they're quite pleasant on the upper deck at quiet times,
but I don't like them at all on the lower deck when busy.

In message , at 09:03:42
on Sun, 23 Jun 2013, Stephen Furley remarked:
I rode one for the first time yesterday.

I saw one for the first time on Friday. The back doors were shut.

Didn't notice what route it was on, or even if it was in service. Close
to Euston Tower. http://www.panoramio.com/photo/92144071
--
Roland Perry

On Sunday, 23 June 2013 09:03:42 UTC+1, Stephen Furley wrote:
I rode one for the first time yesterday. The 24 is a route which I use
every few weeks, and I just happened to be using it yesterday, intending to
do the usual journey, Hampstead Heath to Victoria.

Arrived at the Hampstead terminus in the mid afternoon. Just missed one
bus, but there were three others waiting, and a fourth about to enter. One
of the waiting ones moved out to the stop just a couple of minutes later.
Why so many, this isn't usual?

I entered by the front door, and went up the front stairs. Only a handful
of passengers, not surprising since there had been another bus just before
it. Personally, I think they look ugly from the outside, but I really don't
care what they look like, I'm more concerned about such things as safety,
reliability and fuel economy.

First impression was that they look more spacious internally than I
expected, there's a lot of leg room, probably more than necessary; If they'd
reduced it a bit would it have been possible to fit in an extra row of
seats? They're quiet, and don't vibrate like some of the older buses do.
the bus was still very clean at this time.

There was considerable interest in the buses at the Hampstead end of the
route, with lots photographs being taken by people of all ages, races,
genders etc., including two young Muslim women, who don't really fit the
stereotypical image of a bus spotter.

At one point I could see two other buses on the same route in front of us,
and two coming the other way, so I didn't think it was too much of a problem
when our bus was terminated at Trafalgar Square. I was wrong. The bus in
front left the stop before I could get to it. Given how closely they had
been running I wasn't worried, but the display at the stop showed nothing
for 13 minutes, then two buses at that time, then another two in 17 minutes,
so four buses in just four minutes, then a slightly longer gap, then several
more within less than half an hour in total, Nothing turned up in the time
that the first four buses had been shown. I think it was just over 20
minutes when one came, but only going to Parliament Square. Eventually, a
Pimlico arrived, but almost full even after a few passengers had alighted
and with a large crowd waiting at the stop no hope of getting on. After
another long wait another one turned up, and I just managed to squeeze on..
This was at about 17:50, almost 50 minutes after I had alighted from the
first bus.

Why was the regulation so bad? The traffic was heavy, but no worse than it
often is in that part of town. There were a lot of people in Hi-Vis around;
some in the Camden area seemed to be associated with the replacement bus
service for the Northern Line, a large part of which is closed this weekend,
but others seemed to be advising bus passengers, including directing them to
other doors, rather than all trying to board at the front.

I'm really not sure that these buses work well in crowded conditions.
Having passengers alighting and boarding at the same doors might work if
those waiting to board stood back to allow others to alight first, but they
don't. Despite having three doors, the new buses seem to spend longer at
the stops than more conventional ones.

All of the new buses which I saw yesterday were being operated in 'open
platform' mode, with a conductor. I was quite surprised by this; I thought
the idea would be dropped before they actually entered service. In at least
one case several passengers were standing on the platform area by the open
doors. I know we sometimes used to get on and off (slowly) moving buses in
Routemaster days, but it's been a long time since anybody thought it was a
good idea to build a new bus design with an open platform, and the behaviour
of some passengers seems to have become more idiotic than in the past, and I
saw two incidents in which thankfully nobody was harmed, but they could have
become serious accidents. If the buses continue to operate in this mode,
and passengers don't become more sensible, then I predict that serious
accidents will occur. How do the rear doors work in 'closed doors' mode; do
they open and close with the other doors, or are they simply closed and
locked manually and remain out of use, with just the front and centre doors
in service?

Due to leg problems I find it difficult and painful to stand for long, but
fortunately managed to get a seat at the rear of the lower deck for the last
few stops to Victoria. I was in a rear-facing seat, and without doors it
was actually quite difficult to know when the bus had actually reached the
stop; because the bus was very crowded it was quite difficult to see the
front and centre doors behind me. A number of other passengers seemed to
have the same problem, waiting on the rear platform, then getting off
thinking that the bus was at the stop, when it was just held up it traffic
and it started to move again as they were alighting. The conductors did not
always warn passengers in this situation, and when they did the passengers
did not always heed the advice.

With three doors, two sets of stairs, luggage and wheelchair space there's
not much room left for seats on the lower deck. I think they might work
better, at least at busy times with the front stairs being 'up', and the
rear ones 'down'. Didn't some of the old Blackpool trams work in that way?

In short, I'd say they're quite pleasant on the upper deck at quiet times,
but I don't like them at all on the lower deck when busy.

They don't seem to check tickets so fare evasion could be as bad as on the bendi-buses (BTW the latter seem to have been sold off to provincial bus companies such as Brighton).

There are no conductors per se. The uniformed staff member on the platform seems to be there because of elf&safety - they don't actually seem to have anything to do which is why they do not actually seem to be doing anything - but they get paid for it.

'Push and Shove' and 'Me, Me, Me' by passengers usually wired up with earplugs is the new more - its as bad on the Tube, National Rail, and other buses. Its the way of the Third World that our society has become. I guess its bad on the Boris buses because all entrances / exits are just that with no dedicated doors.

The curtailing of a service part route is a well known TfL scam to make passengers pay twice for a journey. If a service is suddenly curtailed or turned back early drivers are supposed to give passengers a ticket 'voucher' for the rest of their journey. At best I've seen drivers simply not bother; at worst thy simply refuse. Most tourists don't realise this, and so TfL is effectively perpetrating a fraud. I can't see the driver of a Boris bus bothering to issue so many 'voucher' tickets, especially if his/her bus is full.

And a bus ahead not waiting for a curtailed bus behind in order to transfer passengers is a general feature of T4L bus operations now-a-days. Its par for the course really. The drivers don't care, the operators don't care, T4L doesn't care, Boris doesn't care. Nightmare.

CJB.

"Roland Perry" wrote in message ...

I saw one for the first time on Friday. The back doors were shut.

Didn't notice what route it was on, or even if it was in service. Close to
Euston Tower. http://www.panoramio.com/photo/92144071
--
Roland Perry

What time was this? The notices at the stops state that they will operate
with conductors from early morning until early evening, but don't define
those times.

The 24 is the first proper route that they are operating on, but a few have
been on trial on the 38 for several months. I don't know if these are still
on that route, or if they have now been moved to the 24, nor do I know if
these few vehicles are exactly the same as the main production ones.

Thank you for that very interesting post. I think I'll take my Freedom Pass
for a ride and try the route 24 myself.

"CJB" wrote in message
...

They don't seem to check tickets so fare evasion could be as bad as on the
bendi-buses (BTW the latter seem to have been sold off to provincial bus
companies such as Brighton).

There are no conductors per se. The uniformed staff member on the platform
seems to be there because of elf&safety - they don't actually seem to have
anything to do which is why they do not actually seem to be doing
anything - but they get paid for it.

The notices posted at the stops describe them as 'conductors', but whether
that is their official jib title I don't know. They do provide information
to passengers, but could probably do this more effectively if they could
move through the bus, rather than having to remain on the platform. Fitting
an entrance/exit with doors, but then leaving them open and posting a member
of staff there to try to stop passengers falling off, or getting hurt while
boarding a moving bus seems rather odd, and not particularly productive use
of staff.

Some of the Hi-Vi people at stops yesterday were providing advice to
passengers, for example of other routes which they could use, while others
seemed to be doing nothing. Perhaps there is a case for providing travel
advisors at stops in areas where there are many visitors, at busy times.
This would seem to be more useful than guarding an open platform which
doesn't need to be there.

'Push and Shove' and 'Me, Me, Me' by passengers usually wired up with
earplugs is the new more - its as bad on the Tube, National Rail, and
other buses. Its the way of the Third World that our society has become. I
guess its bad on the Boris buses because all entrances / exits are just
that with no dedicated doors.

Also, if passengers are going to be allowed, whether officially or not, to
board a bus between stops, then that effectively allows them to queue-jump
those who are waiting at the stop. At least sometimes the conductors do not
seem to attempt to stop a passenger boarding or alighting from a moving bus,
and if they were to do so it would create the potential for conflict.

When I was young all of the buses in my area were either old ones (RT) or
new ones (RM). While I was at school, probably around 1971 ish the first
front entrance ones, Daimler Fleetline I believe, with the short-lived split
entrance with self-service ticket machines and turnstiles were introduced.
They were not successful, and were long outlived by the older Routemasters.
Since then we seem to have had a long series of bus types, all of which have
been either unsuitable, or not up to the job, and short lived. I think
Boris deserves credit for recognising this, and trying to get something
better. They do seem to be of a higher quality than most of the new buses
which we've seen in recent years. The Routemaster was a very good bus in
its day, but times have moved on, and requirements have changed, e.g. the
need to carry wheelchairs and baby buggies. Re-introducing the open
platform because the Routemaster had one does not seem to be a good idea.
Reducing dwell times at stops is important, but Oyster cards have been far
more effective at doing that than bringing back the open platform. Separate
entrance and exit doors also seem to help, but we've lost that with these
new buses, and with the previous articulated ones, on which, due to their
great length, a third door was possibly useful.

The curtailing of a service part route is a well known TfL scam to make
passengers pay twice for a journey. If a service is suddenly curtailed or
turned back early drivers are supposed to give passengers a ticket
'voucher' for the rest of their journey. At best I've seen drivers simply
not bother; at worst thy simply refuse. Most tourists don't realise this,
and so TfL is effectively perpetrating a fraud. I can't see the driver of
a Boris bus bothering to issue so many 'voucher' tickets, especially if
his/her bus is full.

Also the splitting of a long route into multiple short ones, e.g. the 68
being split into the 468, 68 and 168, though admittedly that is now extended
to Hampstead Heath rather than the original terminus at Chalk Farm. If you
pay cash when boarding a MTA bus in New York City you can ask the driver for
a transfer, which looks like a single ride Metrocard, except that the
printing on it is blue rather than green. It's valid for two hours, but not
for transfer to another bus on the same route, so you cannot use it if you
want to get off and then continue your journey later, but if you need to use
two routes to complete you’re your journey, then you do not need to pay a
second fare. If you use a pay-per-ride Metrocard then I think the transfer
is automatically allowed.

On Sun, 23 Jun 2013 10:21:51 +0100, "Stephen Furley"
wrote:



"Roland Perry" wrote in message ...

I saw one for the first time on Friday. The back doors were shut.

Didn't notice what route it was on, or even if it was in service. Close to
Euston Tower. http://www.panoramio.com/photo/92144071
--
Roland Perry

What time was this? The notices at the stops state that they will operate
with conductors from early morning until early evening, but don't define
those times.

The 24 is the first proper route that they are operating on, but a few have
been on trial on the 38 for several months. I don't know if these are still
on that route, or if they have now been moved to the 24, nor do I know if
these few vehicles are exactly the same as the main production ones.

I looked at Victoria the other day, and all the 38s in the queue were
conventional buses, so perhaps the NB4L prototypes have been
withdrawn. I suppose their new role might be to test out other routes
for production models. Or maybe they've gone back to Wright to be
upgraded to production spec?

I tried them out in January on the 38 route, and took a few pics:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/recline...7632900943469/

In message , at 10:21:51
on Sun, 23 Jun 2013, Stephen Furley remarked:
I saw one for the first time on Friday. The back doors were shut.

Didn't notice what route it was on, or even if it was in service.
Close to Euston Tower. http://www.panoramio.com/photo/92144071

What time was this?

18.55 (and 24 seconds..)

The notices at the stops state that they will operate with conductors
from early morning until early evening, but don't define those times.

The 24 is the first proper route that they are operating on, but a few
have been on trial on the 38 for several months. I don't know if these
are still on that route, or if they have now been moved to the 24, nor
do I know if these few vehicles are exactly the same as the main
production ones.

It was on the 24 Route (and not the 38), so must have been a 24! Bus
stop nearby: Drummond St.
--
Roland Perry

On Sun, 23 Jun 2013 11:30:29 +0100, "Stephen Furley"
wrote:



"CJB" wrote in message
...

They don't seem to check tickets so fare evasion could be as bad as on the
bendi-buses (BTW the latter seem to have been sold off to provincial bus
companies such as Brighton).

There are no conductors per se. The uniformed staff member on the platform
seems to be there because of elf&safety - they don't actually seem to have
anything to do which is why they do not actually seem to be doing
anything - but they get paid for it.

The notices posted at the stops describe them as 'conductors', but whether
that is their official jib title I don't know. They do provide information
to passengers, but could probably do this more effectively if they could
move through the bus, rather than having to remain on the platform. Fitting
an entrance/exit with doors, but then leaving them open and posting a member
of staff there to try to stop passengers falling off, or getting hurt while
boarding a moving bus seems rather odd, and not particularly productive use
of staff.

I wonder if it's hoped that their presence will be temporary? If TfL
can negotiate with the El-fins-efti Taliban to remove this
requirement, it'll save a lot of money.

"Roland Perry" wrote in message ...

I saw one for the first time on Friday. The back doors were shut.

Didn't notice what route it was on, or even if it was in service. Close to
Euston Tower. http://www.panoramio.com/photo/92144071
--
Roland Perry

I just noticed that you said this was on Friday. I'm pretty sure Saturday
was their first day on the 24, so the one you saw was probably either being
moved to whatever depot they operate from, or on crew training, and not
actually in service.