Has anyone heard any updates as to what is happening on the Northern Line?
I've been trawling through search engines to find some info, but it all
seems a bit vague.

Some sources say the old arrangement is coming back because of crowding at
Euston and Camden Town. Others say it's not because the present arrangement
works quite well and there are safety concerns after running the old
arrangement for decades without a hitch.

It seems a bit fatalist to write off the flexibility of the Northern Line on
the basis of one incident. At the moment a twice-daily change at Camden Town
or Euston is a sodding nightmare. As usual their website doesn't have much
useful info on it. It's like the whole thing has been swept under the
carpet.

Alan

In article ,
(Alan Ingham) wrote:


Has anyone heard any updates as to what is happening on the Northern
Line?
I've been trawling through search engines to find some info, but it all
seems a bit vague.

Some sources say the old arrangement is coming back because of crowding
at
Euston and Camden Town. Others say it's not because the present
arrangement
works quite well and there are safety concerns after running the old
arrangement for decades without a hitch.

It seems a bit fatalist to write off the flexibility of the Northern
Line on
the basis of one incident. At the moment a twice-daily change at Camden
Town
or Euston is a sodding nightmare. As usual their website doesn't have
much
useful info on it. It's like the whole thing has been swept under the
carpet.

Alan



The original arrangements are still expected to come back. Timetable 48
was planned to return on 1st Feb, but was cancelled at the last minute.
Timetable 49 (an improved service which still has all the moves at Camden
Town) is due to come in later this year.

Roger

wrote in message ...
In article ,
(Alan Ingham) wrote:


Has anyone heard any updates as to what is happening on the Northern
Line?
I've been trawling through search engines to find some info, but it all
seems a bit vague.

Some sources say the old arrangement is coming back because of crowding
at
Euston and Camden Town. Others say it's not because the present
arrangement
works quite well and there are safety concerns after running the old
arrangement for decades without a hitch.

It seems a bit fatalist to write off the flexibility of the Northern
Line on
the basis of one incident. At the moment a twice-daily change at Camden
Town
or Euston is a sodding nightmare. As usual their website doesn't have
much
useful info on it. It's like the whole thing has been swept under the
carpet.

Alan



The original arrangements are still expected to come back. Timetable 48
was planned to return on 1st Feb, but was cancelled at the last minute.
Timetable 49 (an improved service which still has all the moves at Camden
Town) is due to come in later this year.

Have there been any further rumours with regards to improving the
flexibility of the line, to allow trains to be more easily diverted
during peak times? (This is in reference to earlier moaning about the
track layout at Kennington and how it prevents changes in timetables
during peak periods).


Roger

Brad

In article ,
(TheOneKEA) wrote:

wrote in message
...
In article ,
(Alan Ingham) wrote:


Has anyone heard any updates as to what is happening on the
Northern Line?
I've been trawling through search engines to find some info, but it
all
seems a bit vague.

Some sources say the old arrangement is coming back because of
crowding at
Euston and Camden Town. Others say it's not because the present
arrangement
works quite well and there are safety concerns after running the old
arrangement for decades without a hitch.

It seems a bit fatalist to write off the flexibility of the
Northern Line on
the basis of one incident. At the moment a twice-daily change at
Camden Town
or Euston is a sodding nightmare. As usual their website doesn't
have much
useful info on it. It's like the whole thing has been swept under
the
carpet.

Alan



The original arrangements are still expected to come back. Timetable
48 was planned to return on 1st Feb, but was cancelled at the last
minute. Timetable 49 (an improved service which still has all the
moves at Camden Town) is due to come in later this year.

Have there been any further rumours with regards to improving the
flexibility of the line, to allow trains to be more easily diverted
during peak times? (This is in reference to earlier moaning about the
track layout at Kennington and how it prevents changes in timetables
during peak periods).


Roger

Brad

I don't have that post, but I assume that it was referring to the first
emergency timetable (89/03) that came out that had strict Edgware - Morden
via Bank/Barnet-Kennington via CX paths. The current temporary timetable
(TT20/04) has gone back to the 91 train timetable very similar to the
original timetable 48 with stepping-back at Morden and through trains from
the CX branch to Morden.

As a consequence, there shouldn't be any problems now at Kennington. The
main difference between TT20/04 and timetable 48 is that there is still no
service between the Bank/Barnet branch and CX/Edgware branch. However, if
required, SB Barnet trains can run via Bank and SB Edgware trains can run
via CX, although no trains are timetabled to do so.

Roger

wrote in message ...
In article ,
(TheOneKEA) wrote:

wrote in message
...
In article ,
(Alan Ingham) wrote:


Has anyone heard any updates as to what is happening on the
Northern Line?
I've been trawling through search engines to find some info, but it
all
seems a bit vague.

Some sources say the old arrangement is coming back because of
crowding at
Euston and Camden Town. Others say it's not because the present
arrangement
works quite well and there are safety concerns after running the old
arrangement for decades without a hitch.

It seems a bit fatalist to write off the flexibility of the
Northern Line on
the basis of one incident. At the moment a twice-daily change at
Camden Town
or Euston is a sodding nightmare. As usual their website doesn't
have much
useful info on it. It's like the whole thing has been swept under
the
carpet.

Alan



The original arrangements are still expected to come back. Timetable
48 was planned to return on 1st Feb, but was cancelled at the last
minute. Timetable 49 (an improved service which still has all the
moves at Camden Town) is due to come in later this year.

Have there been any further rumours with regards to improving the
flexibility of the line, to allow trains to be more easily diverted
during peak times? (This is in reference to earlier moaning about the
track layout at Kennington and how it prevents changes in timetables
during peak periods).


Roger

Brad

I don't have that post, but I assume that it was referring to the first
emergency timetable (89/03) that came out that had strict Edgware - Morden
via Bank/Barnet-Kennington via CX paths. The current temporary timetable
(TT20/04) has gone back to the 91 train timetable very similar to the
original timetable 48 with stepping-back at Morden and through trains from
the CX branch to Morden.

As a consequence, there shouldn't be any problems now at Kennington. The
main difference between TT20/04 and timetable 48 is that there is still no
service between the Bank/Barnet branch and CX/Edgware branch. However, if
required, SB Barnet trains can run via Bank and SB Edgware trains can run
via CX, although no trains are timetabled to do so.

Ah, I see. I found this diagram which displays the track layout at
Kennington:

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...069/ltkenn.gif

Someone said that this layout would prevent Bank trains from being
turned because it would either foul the Morden lines or the Charing
Cross lines - in the middle of the diagram, you can see that a
reversing Bank train would block both Morden tunnels in order to
return to the northbound Bank platform. The Charing Cross trains don't
have this problem because of the loop, and I think the person I
mentioned above said that the lack of a Bank reversing loop was
allowing the platforms at Waterloo, London Bridge and Bank to become
overcrowded because the Bank trains couldn't get back to Bank to
alleviate the crush.

I'm probably not remembering this right, though - this thread has
gotten quite large and I can't find the original posts about it...


Roger

A simple solution would be to put a switch from that center siding to the Nb
track from Morden.

I know I'm double-posting, but here's an image I made that shows one
possible way to allow Bank trains to be turned more easily at
Kennington.

http://dynamic3.gamespy.com/~ff9/iko...new-layout.jpg

I know that this new layout is probably completely impossible to build
(I realy have no clue about the structural and engineering constraints
of the Kennington tunnels), but it's one way of fixing the problem...

Brad

In article ,
(TheOneKEA) wrote:

wrote in message
...
In article ,
(TheOneKEA) wrote:

wrote in message
...
In article ,
(Alan Ingham) wrote:


Has anyone heard any updates as to what is happening on the
Northern Line?
I've been trawling through search engines to find some info,
but it all
seems a bit vague.

Some sources say the old arrangement is coming back because of
crowding at
Euston and Camden Town. Others say it's not because the present
arrangement
works quite well and there are safety concerns after running
the old
arrangement for decades without a hitch.

It seems a bit fatalist to write off the flexibility of the
Northern Line on
the basis of one incident. At the moment a twice-daily change
at Camden Town
or Euston is a sodding nightmare. As usual their website
doesn't have much
useful info on it. It's like the whole thing has been swept
under the
carpet.

Alan



The original arrangements are still expected to come back.
Timetable 48 was planned to return on 1st Feb, but was cancelled
at the last minute. Timetable 49 (an improved service which still
has all the moves at Camden Town) is due to come in later this
year.

Have there been any further rumours with regards to improving the
flexibility of the line, to allow trains to be more easily diverted
during peak times? (This is in reference to earlier moaning about
the
track layout at Kennington and how it prevents changes in timetables
during peak periods).


Roger

Brad

I don't have that post, but I assume that it was referring to the
first emergency timetable (89/03) that came out that had strict
Edgware - Morden via Bank/Barnet-Kennington via CX paths. The current
temporary timetable (TT20/04) has gone back to the 91 train timetable
very similar to the original timetable 48 with stepping-back at
Morden and through trains from the CX branch to Morden. As a
consequence, there shouldn't be any problems now at Kennington.
The main difference between TT20/04 and timetable 48 is that there is
still no service between the Bank/Barnet branch and CX/Edgware
branch. However, if required, SB Barnet trains can run via Bank and
SB Edgware trains can run via CX, although no trains are timetabled
to do so.

Ah, I see. I found this diagram which displays the track layout at
Kennington:

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...069/ltkenn.gif

Someone said that this layout would prevent Bank trains from being
turned because it would either foul the Morden lines or the Charing
Cross lines - in the middle of the diagram, you can see that a
reversing Bank train would block both Morden tunnels in order to
return to the northbound Bank platform. The Charing Cross trains don't
have this problem because of the loop, and I think the person I
mentioned above said that the lack of a Bank reversing loop was
allowing the platforms at Waterloo, London Bridge and Bank to become
overcrowded because the Bank trains couldn't get back to Bank to
alleviate the crush.

I'm probably not remembering this right, though - this thread has
gotten quite large and I can't find the original posts about it...


Roger

I was going to post a diagram of Kennington, then remembered that
Tubeprune had it on his site:

http://www.trainweb.org/tubeprune/no...20diagrams.htm

I'm certain the original comments about Kenningon were in relation to it
being overcrowded because all the Barnet trains were terminating there in
the emergency timetable, coupled with a general reduction of trains to
Morden anyway. There were also a lot of passengers from the south end of
the line having to change at Kennington for the CX branch.

There wouldn't usually be a problem with overcrowding if the service was
running normally because there should be a regular through service from
Morden - there would be a Bank train from Morden every 2 - 3 minutes.

Kennington has never really been a timetabled reversing point for Bank
trains, other than in a couple of really crap unworkable timetables over
the past few years. Some delay is caused by a train going into the siding,
but most of the delay is caused by the detraining process and this would
also occur if there was a reversing loop on the Bank branch. Trains going
north from the new Bank loop would block trains going NB from Oval, in
exactly the same way as a train coming out of the siding would.

Physically, I think it would be impossible to fit a Bank loop within the
CX loop, because the CX loop is already quite tight. A Bank loop could be
fitted in a slightly different location at Kennington, but unless there
were going to be frequent trains reversing at Kennington (i.e. every few
minutes) it certainly wouldn't be worth the expense.

Trains are normally reversed in the siding at Kennington for various
reasons:
1} A CX train can go into the siding and then out into the NB CX platform
1. This is sometimes done if a train on the CX branch is running out of
sequence - e.g. T2, T1, T3. T2 would go to the siding and T1 and T3 would
go round the loop as usual. T 1 would depart the loop followed by T2 from
the siding. The trains would then be in their correct sequence.

2) A CX train can go into the siding and be sent NB via Bank for service
requirements. Likewise a Bank train can go into the siding and be sent via
CX.

3) A Bank train that is running extra late could be terminated at
Kennington and reversed via the siding to make it right time north.

4) A Bank train could be deliberately terminated at Kennington to run
early NB to make up a gap on the NB Bank or CX branch. This is especially
so if there is a shut down on the SB CX branch or the branch coming up
from Morden.

Kennington is a very flexible layout - trains can go into the siding from
platforms 2, 3 and 4. and can come from the siding to platforms 1 and 3
(via junction signal B31A). Trains from platform 2 can go via the loop or
down the main to Morden or into the siding. Trains from platform 4 can go
down the main or into the siding. Trains can only go into the loop from
platform 2 and exit the loop to platform 1.

Roger

In article ,
(Wanderingjew698) wrote:

A simple solution would be to put a switch from that center siding to
the Nb
track from Morden.

There is one, although further back than the SB connection, and not very
clear. On the diagram it's that blob on the NB near where the loop passes
underneath. The diagram on Tubeprune's site shows the correct layout.

Roger

snip all details

Can I ask why they have a loop anyway?

Would it not be possible and simpler to have just some more
terminating lines where the trains can be reversed back to
Civilisation?


Keith J Chesworth
www.unseenlondon.co.uk
www.blackpooltram.co.uk
www.happysnapper.com
www.boilerbill.com - main site
www.amerseyferry.co.uk